On Sunday, July 5, my friend, Matt and I had breakfast at Bob Evans with Larry Hehman, a retired priest of the Diocese of Lexington. The meeting was planned to discuss “Pope” Francis and issues of the Church. I was invited to help lay out our case against the Vatican 2 religion. I called Matt that morning telling him that I wasn’t really interested in going. I had no hope in getting anywhere with Hehman. Matt said, “It’s not very hopeful, but we don’t know. We could say this about anyone…well, now is not the time to back out. I’m headed out.” I reluctantly went and met with them an hour later. Matt brought a folder full of information to be used in the conversation.
Hehman was unaware that we held to sedevacantism and after an hour and a half of talking, it never came up. In fact, we hardly argued. There was no point. He was the epitome of a Vatican 2 priest, both a modernist and a relativist. I don’t think he would be offended in me saying so, either. He’d be proud of it. There was no foundation, by which we could start an argument. Halfway through the meeting, Hehman asked about the folder, but Matt said that he had already shot it all down. No point in opening it up.
Jesus, the Gospel account of the cursing the fig tree, dogmas, the papacy, papal infallibility, the Immaculate Conception, Ark of Salvation, Luther and Lutheranism, Eastern Patriarchs, the death penalty, abortion, life, conscience, warfare, Joan of Arc, Adam and Eve, meat on Fridays, homosexuality, mortal sin, racism, “pope” Francis, theologians, Roman Catechism, usury, Constantine, the councils of Jerusalem, Trent, First Vatican Council, and Vatican 2 were the subjects touched upon during our conversation.
To get an idea on Hehman’s beliefs, check out his youtube channel. [1] I’m sure you’ll find some real gems of modernist thought. I’m not interested in looking for them. He also wrote a book titled, The Word of God with a Twist. In a TV interview, he tells us, “The people listen to what I say with their own twists. I can give I think a decent homily to a group. 95% say that’s wonderful, 5% they interpret it their way, and they say I’m going to write a letter to the bishop, because you’re a heretic.” [2]
In the following bullet points, I will not twist what Hehman told us Sunday morning. To the best of my ability, I will tell exactly what he told us as I remembered it.
Hehman explained that, “Jesus was an ignorant little boy. He didn’t know that He was God until later.” I replied that Jesus knew all things even in His mother’s womb. He was all God and all man. Hehman replied, “Jesus was all man like us. He came to understand that He was God. This is the Christ that I worship and the foundation of what I believe as a priest.” He made reference to a story in the apocrypha about Jesus playing with mud patties, which he said turned into bluebirds. When Jesus was called in by His mother, Hehman said Our Lord ran off for supper not aware of His divinity. However, Heyman’s recollection of the narrative found in the Infancy Gospel of Thomas is a far cry from the actual “gospel” account. [3] Regardless, Pope St. Pius X condemned as an error of the modernists in his Decree “Lamentabili sane exitu”, issued on 3 July, 1907, that “35. Christ did not always possess the consciousness of His Messianic dignity.”
Heyman asked if Jesus actually cursed the fig tree and what it meant. He didn’t think it made sense and questioned whether “cursing” is an accurate translation. He said we can’t know exactly what Jesus said for sure, since the translations could be faulty. As for what it meant, I told him that I believed it had to do with the Jews, but I’ll look it up later. Sure enough, Cornelius À Lapide’s commentary confirms, “Christ cursed the fig tree, and dried it up, that He might manifest His power, by which He was able in like manner to destroy and wither up the Scribes and the Jews, His enemies, if He wished; and to show that He would shortly suffer the Cross and death at their hands, not against His will, but voluntarily.” However, Hehman’s point was that our translation is not reliable. We don’t believe in every word in Scripture.
Throughout our conversation, Hehman kept saying, “We must get back to Jesus. What would Jesus do?” According to Hehman, the Church became “Roman” (he said it in a scoffing tone), which I later understood his meaning to be a corruption of Christ’s Church. Vatican 2 and its popes are trying to undo all the wrongs the Church had done over the years in corrupting the teachings of Jesus. He criticized previous councils like Vatican I and Trent, which he called “overkill.” He spoke of Vatican I with disdain.
He thought the center of the Church should be in Jerusalem, not Rome.
Hehman said, “Dogmas can come to be understood differently.” Matt replied, “What about Vatican I’s teaching that dogmas must be understood in the same sense and same understanding as the Church always had?” Hehman came back, “Oh, I don’t believe that. Where does Vatican I say this dogmatically?”
He told us, “The Church is still trying to figure it out. The Church has been wrong about many things.” He was abundantly clear that we don’t have to believe everything the popes teach in their encyclicals, apostolic exhortations, bulls, etc. When I asked what specifically has the Church been wrong about in the past? He said, “Usury. Jesus was clear about usury, but now the whole church is involved in it and the Vatican is corrupt.”
He was happy about the new teaching against the death penalty. He thought the Church was wrong in the past in its stance and specifically criticized St. Thomas Aquinas on the issue.
He loves “Pope” Francis and told us that Francis was one of the greatest popes ever.
Hehman said papal infallibility concerns the “words of Christ and the people’s faith. It’s when everybody, the pope, bishops, and people, everybody believes in something. It’s not about pope, pope, pope, but when all the bishops and people of God come to believe it.” He acted like the pope was the last on the list.
I asked what he thought of Paul VI’s letter to the Patriarch of Constantinople referring to the Eastern Orthodox as the “Church of Christ.” “Is the Eastern Orthodox religion part of the Church of Christ?” “They probably are.” Hehman replied. He was clear that all baptized non-Catholics are part of the Church.
He said that conscience is what really matters at the end. It doesn’t matter if you believe in Jesus or what religion you hold. It all comes down to conscience.
He told us that he didn’t believe in a literal Adam and Eve.
He told us that homosexuality in the past is not the same as homosexuality today.
He said the Church has always been pro-life. I told Father, “According to everything you’ve said thus far, the Church could change its position on abortion in the future.” He retorted, “Yes, the Church might have a different understanding on life, too.”
I asked Father about his past. How did he believe in high-school? He told us that the priest and nuns told him that if he ate a wiener on Friday, he would go to hell. I pressed him and asked, “What if you ate meat on Friday by accident?” He acknowledged that it wouldn’t be considered a mortal sin. I pressed him further, “So you’re saying that if knew what the Church taught and ate meat anyway, that’s not a mortal sin?” He repeated what I said, “Yes, if you say to hell with the Church, I’m eating meat on Friday. You’re not going to hell for it.” He continued, “I didn’t know what a mortal sin was. The whole thing is ridiculous.” For someone who kept talking about how we should get back to Jesus, you’d think obedience would be part of that equation. There is a thing called the 4th Commandment and breaking it in the fullest sense is a mortal sin, but not to Hehman. I told him that we were like the priest and nuns in his school days. He said, “I know, that’s sad.” I couldn’t control my laughter. He was serious, too, which made it all the funnier.
As we parted ways, Hehman said he was still interested in seeing what’s in the folder. I replied, “It’s all pre-Vatican 2 stuff. You wouldn’t be interested.” His final words were that he studied pre-Vatican 2 theology and thought much of it was good. Therefore, he said, “There’s still hope for me?”
Matt was shellshocked, since he arranged the meeting with the hope of converting him. He was sorry about the whole thing, but now realizes that the meeting was gold. We got a real look into the mind of a Vatican 2 priest and where priests like him are coming from. If you think he’s an anomaly, Hehman is revered in the Lexington Diocese with a hall named after him at Christ the King Cathedral.
Footnotes
[1] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIm8TcIvOCagXuOrq3H2mGA
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLtM-WNiTPw
[3] The Infancy Gospel of Thomas from the CE: 2. This child Jesus, when five years old, was playing in the ford of a mountain stream; and He collected the flowing waters into pools, and made them clear immediately, and by a word alone He made them obey Him. And having made some soft clay, He fashioned out of it twelve sparrows. And it was the Sabbath when He did these things. And there were also many other children playing with Him. And a certain Jew, seeing what Jesus was doing, playing on the Sabbath, went off immediately, and said to his father Joseph: Behold, your son is at the stream, and has taken clay, and made of it twelve birds, and has profaned the Sabbath. And Joseph, coming to the place and seeing, cried out to Him, saying: Why do you do on the Sabbath what it is not lawful to do? And Jesus clapped His hands, and cried out to the sparrows, and said to them: Off you go! And the sparrows flew, and went off crying. And the Jews seeing this were amazed, and went away and reported to their chief men what they had seen Jesus doing.
Speray's Catholicism in a Nutshell 