THE HISTORY OF THE BAPTIST CHURCHES IN A NUTSHELL
By Steven Speray
April 27, 2006 AD
Living in the Bible belt here in Kentucky for so many years and being surrounded by so many Baptists who have attempted to convert me by way of tracts and booklets has compelled me to give a response using a little history and logic. Since there are so many different types of Baptist churches holding to diverse doctrines and practices, I titled this writing emphasizing the plural churches because the Baptists are not unified in faith. This response will give me the opportunity to use the Baptists as an example showing the importance of knowing your church history.
Today, the Baptist churches have over 25 different branches or sects totaling nearly 32,000,000 members worldwide. The Southern Baptist being the largest body is the largest Protestant organization in the United States.
The name “Baptist” comes from the peculiar doctrine of total immersion in baptism conferred only to those who could confess a belief in Christ, which merely symbolized the newfound faith. The Baptists first instituted the doctrine of total immersion of water baptism in 1644, more than 30 years after the first Baptist church was founded.
Contrary to the common myth that Baptists can trace their history back to Christ or John the Baptist, never in history prior to the Reformation do we find an individual or church that claimed the same peculiar beliefs as found in the Baptist churches today. As a matter of fact, the two doctrines (beliefs) shared by all Baptists, total immersion in baptism for adults only as an ordinance, and the Bible Only (Sola Scriptura) did not exist as beliefs for anyone who claimed Christianity until the 16th and 17th centuries.
Dr. J. M. Carroll’s little booklet, “The Trail of Blood, a History of the Baptist Church,” gives his account of following the Christians down through the centuries. He also included a chart to better clarify his version of church history. It has sold over 2,000,000 copies and is taught by many Baptists as a factual history of Christianity.
The introduction of this booklet, written by Clarence Walker, begins with a brief history of Dr. Carroll’s interest in the history of different denominations, especially their origin. His purpose, of course, was to find the oldest and most like the churches described in the New Testament.
On page 2, a claim is implied that Baptists are not Protestants by referring them separately from the Catholics and Protestants. The map in the back of the booklet clarifies this implication with a statement saying, “Baptists are not Protestants since they did not come out of the Catholic Church.” In the same paragraph of page 2, another claim is made that Anabaptists existed before the Reformation informing us that Dr. Carroll believes that Anabaptists were the first Baptists.
Since Dr. Carroll is aware that the term Baptists cannot be found in history, he indicates that Baptists came under the nicknames of Anabaptists, Paulicians, Donatists, Albigenses, Waldenses, Montanists, and Novations. (Pages 2, 10, 55)
He states that the Catholic Church put untold numbers of Baptists to death during the dark ages, and goes on to say their history was written in legal documents and papers of those ages.
However, the whole booklet is filled with myths and lies as will be shown next.
The Real History of the Baptists
With the corruption of the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church, an Augustinian priest named Martin Luther, overreacted in his attack against the corruption of the hierarchy and was then later excommunicated in 1521 for denying the historical understanding of salvation.
In 1517 Germany, during Martin Luther’s first attack on the historic Christian doctrines, another preacher named Thomas Munzer attacked Martin Luther’s position on how the Church should follow Christ and be saved. Just before his execution in 1525, he recanted everything, made a good confession, received Communion, and died united to the Catholic Church.
Though he maintained Luther’s positions on the new doctrines of the Bible Alone and Salvation by Faith Alone, Munzer also believed the sacrament of baptism to infants was not valid since infants couldn’t believe or make a decision in belief. Therefore, his new position was that all babies who were baptized must at the age of reason make a confession of faith and be re-baptized as a sign of the individual’s new belief in Christ.
Munzer also denied the sacrament of the Eucharist claiming Christ did not become transubstantiated on the altar of Catholic churches. He believed the Eucharist was merely a symbolic gesture of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. He once undermined the Catholic Mass by using pretzels and beer as meal offerings in place of bread and wine to prove he did not believe in the sacrificial character or the Real Presence. Most Baptists today use crackers and grape juice to indicate the same belief as Munzer.
In 1525, a Catholic priest named Menno Simons set up the first Anabaptist churches. Their purpose was to establish what they held as a spiritual kingdom of converts to real Christianity independent of all civil and church authority. This historic fact debunks Dr. Carroll’s contention that Anabaptists existed before the Reformation.
The term Anabaptist or “Re”baptist stems from the fact that these new Protestants practiced rebaptism for all those converted out of the Roman Catholic Church. The rebaptisms always took place with water being poured over the top of the head just as the Roman Catholic Church had been doing for 1500 years. Never was total body immersion thought to be necessary.
Menno Simons’ new church came to be known as the Mennonites. The Amish today are one of several sects that have split from the Mennonite Church. They appear to be one and the same to many outside of these two religions.
In 1602, an Anglican priest named John Smyth refusing to conform to the Church of England fled England to Amsterdam, Holland and tried to become a Mennonite. He went so far as to rebaptise himself by pouring water over top of his own head. Again, as an Anglican, he never thought that one needed to be immersed. However, doubting the validity of his self-administered baptism was again rebaptised by the Dutch Mennonites for his third baptism. Due to his views on salvation, the Mennonites later rejected him.
In 1609, he established what we could rightly call the very first Baptist Church in history. In 1611, John Smyth with his friend Thomas Helwys compiled a “Confession” or a “Declaration of Faith” combining Martin Luther’s new doctrines: the Bible alone is the sole authority of faith, and a faith alone for salvation with adult (children but not infants) believers only to be baptized (no mention of immersion as the practice was then of pouring). It also stated the Church must be completely separated from the state. All civil authorities were to take care of temporal affairs only and allow the freedom of religion to all.
The fatal flaws pertaining to these positions is a church constantly dividing, which always comes with a bible only belief, leaving the ultimate interpretation of the Scriptures to each individual. The other is a state that is separated from the Church will always result in an anti-religious state, just as it did in America with its false democratic government which keeps out the reign of Christ as King of its society.
After the death of John Smyth in 1612, Helwys along with his companions returned to England to set up its first Baptist Church at Spitalfields, in London. Thomas Helwys later died in 1616.
The first two churches along with the members were known as the General Baptists for their teaching of the general atonement for all men. They believed in the total free will of man to choose to be saved. Again, they believed in pouring water in baptism until they adopted the method of immersion in 1650 by the splinter group known as the
Immersion Baptists founded in 1644. This group was an offshoot of yet another splinter group called the Particular Baptists founded in the mid 1630’s.
It was the Immersion Baptists with their new confession of faith that sealed forever the name that came to be known as the Baptist church. However, they would merge back with the Particular Baptists and become one.
The Particular Baptists founded by John Spillsbury in Southwark, England did not hold to the belief of the general atonement. This group based its beliefs on the new doctrines first founded by the notorious Protestant Reformer John Calvin who claimed a limited (particular) atonement of Christ’s sacrifice and along with Luther believed in double-predestination.
Though very Calvinistic at first, they were influenced by the teachings of the Anglican clergymen John and Charles Wesley. With this influence, William Carey in 1792 established missionaries following the example of Roger Williams, the Anglican priest turned Baptist convert who came to America establishing its first Baptist church. He later died rejecting his baptism and organized religion altogether.
In 1891, the Baptist Union of Great Britain and Ireland were formed by a unification of General and Particular Baptists. However, many Baptist churches refused to join in the union, leaving them to be independent churches.
The Baptist churches in America grew quickly and in 1845 divided in three major Conventions: Northern, Southern, and Colored (Black). Later they divided again and again into many different sects. Today there are American Baptists, American Baptists USA, Baptist Bible Fellowship, Missionary Baptists, Bethel Baptists, Central Baptists, Conservative Baptists, Baptist Church of Christ, Free Will Baptists, General Baptists, Landmark Baptists, National Baptists, National Baptists USA, National Missionary Baptists, National Primitive Baptists, North American Baptists, Primitive Baptists, Progressive Baptists, Reformed Baptists, Separate Baptists, Seventh Day Baptists, Southern Baptists, United Baptists, United Free Will Baptists, Berean Fundamental Baptists, Bible Fellowship Baptists, Bible Protestant Baptists, and Bible Way Baptists.
Black Baptists
Since black Americans constitute a large part of Baptists, I would like to touch upon their role in the Baptist religions.
Today, 4 out of 5 blacks in America are Baptists. This is due to the white English Protestants who owned and proselytized their slaves in early America.
The slave trade was justified by the Protestants using the New Testament which speaks of a type of slavery however unlike the slavery of early America. This is the result of Luther’s Bible Only doctrine, which allows anyone to interpret Scripture entirely for themselves without the authority of the church to put parameters on such interpretations.
The slaves used the Old Testament books showing the horrors of slavery with the example of the captivity of Israel in Egypt. The words of Moses, “Let my people go” was the rally cry of slaves who escaped or attempted to escape to freedom from their English slave masters.
Catholics were forbidden to have slaves as all the popes during those times condemned the slave trade as a damnable sin. However, a few so-called Catholics did continue and participate in the slave trade. Most black Catholics in America came from the French who married into the race and the Spanish who helped the slaves escape from the English Protestants.
However, the English greatly outnumbered the French and Spanish and pushed the French to the Southern tip of Louisiana and to the north into Canada, while the Spanish where pushed back into Central and South America.
Though in America most blacks are Baptists, in the rest of the world, black Catholics far outnumber any other religious group for the exception of Islam.
In the mid-1800’s, most slaves were Methodists following Wesleyan theology. Over the years the slaves and their children began joining the Baptist churches because of its Calvinist Theology, which is more appealing. Due to the racism found in the churches, blacks began to build and establish their own churches, which they could worship, fellowship, and lead their own congregations.
Contrary to Wesleyan theology, Calvinist theology might stress Christ’s words; “take up my yoke, which is easy” which concerns resting in Christ for He did all the work and suffering. Not only would this appeal to all men but also especially with slaves who have done nothing but work and suffer their whole lives, not to mention the many years of hardships that followed after their freedom was granted.
For black America today, the Baptist church is the church of family history where the emphasis is on the preaching on Word of God and the praising the Lord in song. The closeness of the black family resides in the faith of their ancestors, which had become the Baptist religions for most of them.
Nicknames of early Baptists?
So what about Dr. Carroll’s claim that Baptists came under the nicknames of Paulicians, Anabaptists, Donatists, Albigenses, Waldenses, Montanists, and Novations?
Well, we know about the Anabaptists, but the rest of these groups are a whole other story.
The Paulicians originated from the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church in the 7th century and continued into the 12th century. They believed Christ only appeared in human form and only seemed to have died. They greatly emphasized the Epistles of Paul (hence the name Paulicians), while rejecting the Epistles of Peter and the entire Old Testament.
Donatists were named after Donatist the Great, a Catholic Bishop of Carthage in 313 AD, who split from the Catholic Church. Donatists were ex-Catholics who believed in all seven sacraments of the Catholic Church. However, they believed the sacraments were invalid if the minister (priest) of the sacraments was impure or in mortal sin. This was contrary to the Catholic belief that Christ is the real minister of the sacraments and the priests were the ambassadors of Christ.
The Montanists originated in the 2nd century and lasted through the 9th century. They believed they were oracles of the Holy Spirit, and the only possessors of any charismatic qualities. They were opposed to any kind of art and were a quasi-form of Gnostics. However, they did believe in the seven sacraments of the Catholic Church.
The Novations were a schismatic group named for the man Novation who set himself up as the pope in 251 AD.
The Albigenses of the 11th century and the Waldenses of the 12th century were a part of Catharism. Cathars had many different sects. In general, they all believed the world and all matter were evil.
Albigenses were named for the place, Albi, France, where the heresy originated. They with the Waldenses were vegetarians who practiced promiscuity. They believed the body was evil and the spirit must be freed from the body. They practiced extreme mortifications with tremendous fasts, sometimes even to the point of suicide. Since they believed offspring was evil, marriage and infant baptism were forbidden. Since they also believed the body was evil, they rejected the incarnation of Christ.
The extreme measure Dr. Carroll goes to prove Baptists go back to the time of Christ is quite an insult to his own religion. For no Baptist would dare claim these groups as their own who rejected the Old Testament and the Epistles of Peter, believed in the seven sacraments of the Catholic Church, and forbidding marriage while practicing promiscuity.
However, the attempt to find the oldest and most like the church described in the New Testament is made by Dr. Carroll because he realized it is absolutely necessary to demonstrate their church or at least their beliefs can be found and substantiated in every generation since Christ.
Unfortunately for them, only one church can do what they wish their church could do. The Roman Catholic Church is the only church found in every generation since Christ and has always remained unified in doctrine resulting in a unified Church. Only the Catholic Church can be totally substantiated in history, Scripture and logic.
As for the untold numbers of Baptists who were put to death by the Catholic Church during the dark ages, they were untold because it didn’t happen. As for their history being written in legal documents and papers of those ages, they don’t exist and never did. Dr. Carroll just plain lied about it because he knew the biggest obstacle in his belief system was the Roman Catholic Church. Thankfully, however, rumor has it that he recanted everything on his deathbed and admitted his lies.
As for the claim that Baptists were not Protestants since they did not come out of the Catholic Church is a half-truth since they actually came out of the Church of England under the influence of the Dutch Mennonites. This means that they were Protestants since they held to the two foundational doctrines never known in history, which caused the revolt against Rome.
Conclusion
The common thread for all Baptists is the practice of adult baptism by total immersion only while rejecting infant baptism. All Baptists believe in Luther’s doctrine of Sola Scriptura or the Bible Only as the sole authority on faith. All Baptists agree with Luther, Calvin, and the other notorious Reformers that the Catholic Church’s papacy is false because Protestants believe it is unbiblical in their personal interpretations of the Scripture, which again stems from the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.
Most Baptists believe in Luther and Calvin’s doctrine once-saved-always-saved.
With this in mind, Catholics have five important questions for Baptists:
1. What church would you have attended before the first Baptist church was established and built in 1609 or before the Protestant Revolt?
2. If you already know for sure you are going to be in heaven, why the need to hope and work out your salvation in fear and trembling as St Paul said to do? After all, if you know already you’re going to heaven, hope is not needed, and there would be no need to fear and tremble.
3. In light of St. Paul stating in a salvation context that he might end up a reprobate himself if he didn’t buffet his body, how is it he didn’t know for sure he was going to heaven but you do?
4. If once saved always saved is true, why does the Bible warn in a salvation context of falling away or being cut off if it were impossible for one to fall away or be cut off?
5. Why belong to a man-made religion based on man-made beliefs about the Bible, which run contrary to the entire 1500-year history of Christianity? If the answer is something like, “My beliefs come from the Bible” then what about the entire Christian world who never believed in those things for next 1500 years until those particular beliefs were resurrected during the 16th century?
Since the Baptist churches are not united in their interpretation of Scripture, they claim that it doesn’t really matter what church of faith you belong to as long as you believe and trust Jesus.
However, did not Christ pray that they (the church) be one? Did Christ’s prayer fail to achieve what He asked the Father? Did not Christ say that the gates of hell would never prevail against his church?
Doesn’t that mean His church is to be found in every generation till the end of time teaching nothing but the truth?
History is the key.
We are told to hold fast to the faith that was delivered from the beginning and calls to mind the warning of St. Paul, “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:8-9
The Baptist Church’s interpretation of Scripture was never believed or taught for 1500 years of Christianity such as the Bible being the ONLY authority and rule of faith, or adult baptism by immersion only, or a once-saved-always-saved belief.
The historic Christian recognizes that the Baptist faith is another gospel, which was never ever preached by anyone until the 16th century Protestant Revolt. According to St. Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, “let him be accursed.”
When Baptist preachers are confronted with this contradiction, they almost always retort that it is not about religion but a relationship.
This final statement is all they can muster because in the end they know their religion could not be truly and logically justified historically or even by Holy Scripture. It doesn’t matter to them because they claim to have a relationship with Christ and nothing was going to separate that relationship.
The problem with this understanding is religion is the very substance of the relationship. Without the religion, the relationship is hollow. The very definition of religion is the system of belief based on faith and the outward practices of life by which men indicate their relationship with God.
This means that a false religion is a false relationship with one’s own God or a wrong religion is a wrong relationship with one’s own God.
It’s that simple.
Christ instituted the Catholic Church so we can have the right relationship with Him. Those who refuse to accept it are like the ones whom Jesus spoke, “He who rejects you rejects me and he who rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”
There are many people who completely fabricate lies about the Catholic Church, and/or misrepresent it.
I’ve seen it all and it amazes me how easy it is to debunk them all.
Christ said, “The path to destruction is a wide one and many are those who take it, but the path to paradise is a narrow one and few who even find it.” We may live in a confusing world but the narrow path can be found for Christ would not have left us without being able to find it.
I submit the Catholic Faith is that path for it is the only faith that can be found throughout the entire history of Christianity. It was the faith of Peter to whom Jesus gave the keys. It was the faith of all Peter’s successors. It was the faith of Stephen who was the first to die because of it. It was the faith of all the saints.
The Roman Catholic Faith is the faith found in all generations since Christ and if this faith is not it… then nothing else is.
Good history, thank you…
vimelendez
FYI, the Holy Roman Catholic Church started with Constantine,
SPERAY REPLIES: Their were 30 popes by time Constantine took over Rome. The Catholic Church was started by Christ. That’s a fact.
his baptism before his death united bishops and congregations that were promoting infant baptism,
SPERAY REPLIES: Wrong. They were already united. If you read Pope Clement’s letter to the Corinthians, you’d see this truth.
adoration of Mary,
SPERAY REPLIES: No Catholic adores Mary! That’s simply a lie perpetuated by Protestants.
and baptismal regeneration, among other Catholic practices, to the government of the Roman Empire.
SPERAY REPLIES: Baptismal regeneration is clearly taught and practiced in the Bible.
So, from the First Church in Jerusalem until Constantine, there was no “Catholic Church.”
SPERAY REPLIES: A TOTAL LIE! Even St. Ignatius of Antioch calls the Church the Catholic Church in 107 AD.
The RCC began in the 3rd Century, offically, after Constantine’s sprinkling baptism and death.
SPERAY REPLIES: Stop being silly. Where did you get this information?
So please, let’s be honest in reporting what we DO know about the RCC, and not what we would prefer to say about the RCC beginnings. Oh, and Peter was NOT the first pope.
SPERAY REPLIES: Yes, Peter was the First Pope as you can read the early Church fathers say so.
No Bible verse even eludes to that.
SPERAY REPLIES: Many Bible verses eludes to it.
And Peter had a wife, because Jesus healed Peter’s mother in law, read Luke 8:14-16, “14 And when Jesus was come into Peter’s house, he saw his wife’s mother laid, and sick of a fever. 15 And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them. 16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:” So IF Peter had been
the first pope, why did he serve that office AS A MARRIED MAN????????
SPERAY REPLIES: Because many popes served the office with wives. There have been about 40 of them. We even have popes who had sons who became pope. One of the last popes to be married while pope was Pope John XVII in 1003 AD.
Wow! that was a BIG nut shell, but thank you for this information. Living in Georgia and volunteering in Prison Ministry I often have to defend my Catholic faith. This data will surely assist me in dealing with my Baptist/Protestant co-workers.
http://www.fatimamovement.com/009_MakingaHereticalBaptism.htm
“If any one saith, that the baptism of John had the same force as the baptism of Christ: let him be anathema.”
– CANON I (ON THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM) COUNCIL OF TRENT, 1545-1563
Certainly if anyone immerses a child in water three times in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen, and he does not say: “I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, Amen,” the child is not baptized. Let those concerning whom there is a doubt, whether or not they have been baptized, be baptized after these words have first been uttered: “If you are baptized I do not baptize you, if you are not yet baptized, I baptize you, etc.” – Alexander III, 1159-1181
“It is with a certain trepidation because if you despise and reject this ultimate means, we will not have any more forgiveness from Heaven, because we will have committed a sin which the Gospel calls the sin against the Holy Ghost. This sin consists of openly rejecting, with full knowledge and consent, the salvation which He offers.” – Sister Lucia Santos, 1957
2:24 For the name of God through you is blasphemed among the Gentiles, as it is written.
-Romans Chapter 2 1899 D.R.
12:10 but to him that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven.
-Luke Chapter 12 1899 DR
John the Baptist is the patron “saint” of Freemasonry. His baptism “clears the way for the one who is coming.” In the Latin Vulgate (which is the only Bible a Catholic should read) the two baptisms are indicated in Acts XIX, which is also the basis for exorcism. Spiritum Sanctum is the Holy Ghost (or the one who was, is and ever shall be God). Spiritus Sanctus is the spirit of the one who is coming. Christ’s baptism requires Spiritum Sanctum (Holy Ghost) while John’s technically clears Jesus Christ out of the way for the one who is coming, the Jewish Messiah/Anti-Christ. This is why it is used by Freemasonry in the Novus Ordo. This is what Paul VI meant when he said that the Church is in a state of auto-demolition. By baptising in the name of the one who is coming, it is clearing Christ off the earth in favor of the anticipation of the man of sin, the Jewish Jesus of the sun and of the root and stock of David. Sin is heresy- it couldn’t have happened if parents remembered the name of God- the Holy Ghost. So this is the game. Add onto that the broken rites of consecration, ordinations, etc. and it becomes obvious that the Church is broken. It all could have been prevented had people remembered the Holy Ghost, but cakes and baptismal dresses were sooo much more important. Good luck.
Dear Steven do you think Christ wanted you to follow a “mans” teachings like the pope which is suppost be king of heaven and king of hell literally.
Dear Don, I don’t know any teaching whatsoever that says the pope is supposed to be king of heaven and hell literally. The papacy properly understood is not a mere man’s teaching, since Christ, the God/Man established it. I would be glad to help you know what the papacy is, where it is taught in Scripture and history, and whatever else you would like to know about it.
You continue, Why is the pope not healing the sick but living in splender with body guards and a valuable pope mobile what is he afraid of if he has the power of God on earth? How many body guards did Jesus have? Don
ANSWER: If you pay close attention to my website, you will see that we don’t have a true pope at the moment. Benedict XVI is an antipope. We haven’t had a true pope since 1958. However, with regards to the rest of your question: It’s true that many bad popes have lived in splendor and not lived as Christ. They will go to hell for it, I’m sure. However, it’s been a long time since these bad popes lived. Today (last 100 yrs), popes don’t live in splendor as you might think. They have one tiny room which is not even air conditioned. Do you have an air conditioner? Good popes hardly own a thing. They are poor. Pope Gregory the Great, was very rich owning millions of acres of land, but he gave every single cent away to the poor. Pope St. Pius X (d. 1914) said, “I was born poor, and I shall die poor.” He didn’t even own shoes as a boy. Popes get up early in the morning and pray and work all day with schedules more full than the President of the USA. Some of them have healed the sick, but more importantly, they have healed many souls. Now you say, “what is he afraid of if he has the power of God on earth” BUT what do you mean by that? He has very limited power and nothing as to the almighty power of God. You have a distorted view of the papacy. Also, to answer your last question, Christ ran and escaped when need be, and his Apostles’ carried swords. (Luke 22:36-38) The only time Christ forbade them from using them, was when it was time to hand Himself over for the Redemption of mankind. However, there is a time to use the sword justly as Christ implied. As for Christ’s body guards, the Apostles’ sure acted like them, when they attempted to keep those parents from bringing their little children away from Christ. (Matt. 19:13-14) Imagine, when nuts tried to get close to Christ to insult Him or something? I’m sure the Apostles’ were there acting as body guards. By the way, many popes gave up their lives for Christ! Some of them were great saints, and some of them were great sinners. I suggest you read my book “Papal Anomalies, and Their Implications” and find out the truth about the popes.
Thanks for the questions.
Steven
When you get your history from Catholic history books, obviously it is biased.
SPERAY: I got my history from non-Catholic history books. I laid out the straight facts which you can find in any secular encyclopedia and world almanac. You obviously are the one who is biased./////
The Catholic practice of burning any book it considered heresy makes credible accounts hard to locate, but they do exist.
SPERAY: I don’t deny that books were burned, and I have no problem with burning bad books, but the Catholic Church never hid anything. All heresies were exposed in public./////
Mr. Carroll had access to many of these books which he conveinently list in his work The Trail of Blood.
SPERAY: Carrol was an idiot! If you actually read my article, which you apparently didn’t, you would see who he claimed were the first Baptists. He actually insults his own religion and yours./////
So when you acuse him of lying, please mention that he is doing what good historians do – provide references for his findings. (you provided none)
SPERAY: He actually retracted his work on his deathbed. He admitted to lying. As for references, you’re right, I should have listed them. I used several encyclopedias and the Handbook of Denominations in the United States by Frank S. Mead. I used other books from the Baptists for their theology, all written by James White. /////
Constantine merged the Roman empire to Christianity in the 4th century which a hundred years later became the harlot Catholic Church.
SPERAY: Sorry, but that myth so ridiculous, it’s hard to believe anyone accepts it. There were 29 popes before Constantine. What Church do you think they were the popes to? You should read simple history books, and find out the real truth./////
What was the church like prior to this unholy union?
SPERAY: Before Constantine, the Church had the same 7 sacraments that Baptists reject today. That Church recognized those 29 popes as the visible head of the Church. That Church had the mass, purgatory, honor of Our Lady, the saints, and angels, etc. etc. that your religion rejects./////
It was a church preaching salvation by faith – practicing believers baptism – praying only to God the Father through Jesus Christ.
SPERAY: That believers baptism, the Church believed saved souls as you’ll read in I Peter 3:21, which the Baptists reject. They didn’t pray only to God. We have many prayers to Mary, St. Joseph, etc. in the very First Century. You should read my article on praying to Mary, saints, and angels so that you’ll see that all prayer is not worship, even if all worship is prayer. /////
The idolatrous practices of the Romans is what brought you Catholicism.
SPERAY: What idolatrous practices? I adore God alone and Him alone do I practice it.//////
So you go ahead and pray to dead people,
SPERAY: I don’t pray to dead people. I pray to alive people in Christ in Heaven, and ask them to help me, as you ask your peers on earth to pray and help you./////
look at Jesus still on the cross
SPERAY: Jesus is not still on the cross, but I do look at the crucifix to remind me how much He loved me. It sounds like you don’t want to see Jesus on the Cross, just as Satan didn’t want to see it. /////
and continue to molest children
SPERAY: Those who molest of children should be put to death. It’s a horrible crime and those priests that took part in it are in league with the devil. But guess what? There are a higher number of cases of Baptist preachers molesting children than in the Catholic Church. Why don’t we hear about them? Because no one cares about a false religion who does it, like your man-made Baptist religion that didn’t exist before the 17th century. That’s a fact, Jack! Sorry, I don’t know your real name because you didn’t have the courage to leave it for me. That’s the difference between you and me. I don’t fear leaving my name on my work for the world to see. /////
The undisputable archeological evidence for the “trail of blood” is DNA.
SPERAY: What archeological evidence? Who has it, where can it be found?
Jesus was a Mason and the primitive Baptist wear the lamb skin in the primitive baptist church to remember this fact. The story of Jesus and his brother James and their murdered cousin John the Baptist was relayed to me as family history.
SPERAY: In Matt. 10:3, we see that James is the son of Alphaeus. This Alphaeus is the same person as Clopas. The Aramaic name for Alphaeus can be rendered in Greek either as Alphaeus or as Clopas. Alphaeus took a Greek name similar to his Jewish name, the way Saul took the name Paul. James the Less or Younger (brother of the Lord) is the son of Mary and Clopas (Alphaeus). This Mary, wife of Clopas was at the foot of the Cross with the Virgin Mary. Two different Mary’s, mean that James and Jesus are not blood brothers. The other “brethren” are the actual full blood brothers of James, which means they are not the sons of the Virgin Mary. Jesus had no brothers, but close relatives whom they referred to as brothers.
I am an ancestral Mason, Baptist, Priests Templar and a Jew from deep in the Mountains of West Virginia. My people are “melungians” of the primitive Baptist church.
SPERAY: The Baptist Church didn’t exist before the 1600’s. That’s a fact!
We of the original Baptist church are the descendants of Jesus, his brother James and the apostles.
SPERAY: You can find your DNA types here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melungeon
In history we lived as crypto Jews- Cathars, Masons, Mennonites- all crypto Jews. The people of the primitive baptist church in the applachain mountains have the same DNA as the “Nazarenes” that stil live by the river Jordan today. Middle eastern DNA that is very rare amoung most americans is common amoung primitive Baptist. We call our Grandmothers “Maw Maw”- this is a common in Turkey, Syria and the hindu Kush, but not in europe. The archeological evidence for the Baptist being the true remnant church is obvious- primitive Baptist never did evangelize-they simply keep the way of the Lord, love thier neighbors, protect their family and their country.
SPERAY: Race and religion are two different things. Christ’s own people don’t accept Him as Lord. Your Baptist religion is Protestant. If you follow the Bible Alone principle, then your religion is new, not old. An ex-Catholic priest invented the idea. If you say that your people never did evangelize, then you are saying that your people are disobedient to Christ who said to evangelize.
why did you say that Pope Benedict XVI is an anti-pope???
The simple reason why I say Benedict XVI is an antipope is due to the fact that he doesn’t hold the Catholic Faith. He believes, promotes, and practices inter-religious worship as something good. The entire history of the Catholic Church has condemned inter-religious worship as contrary to the Divine Law. It would be no different if Benedict XVI believed and promoted homosexuality or artificial contraception as something good. Of course, he rightly condemns these two practices, but inter-religious worship falls under the same category.
Benedict XVI believes that the Church Christ founded “extends much further than the Catholic Church” as he himself has plainly stated. In other words, he believes Protestants, such as Baptists, are Christians and members of the Body of Christ, they just don’t have the fullness of the truth. This is contrary to the dogma that the Church of Christ is one and the same as the Catholic Church and that baptized non-Catholics are heretics, not true Christians.
Benedict XVI believes that Muslims worship the one true God when they reject Christ as God.
Benedict XVI believes the Church can issue harmful practices such as the mass. He stated the New Mass was harmful and yet has not eliminated it.
Benedict XVI believes in a different sacramental theology than historic and universal Catholicism.
I could go on, but the simple fact is Benedict XVI is a modernist. A Catholic can’t be a modernist and a Catholic at the same time. Modernism is the synthesis of all heresies according to Pope St. Pius X, therefore, I say that a modernist is the synthesis of all heretics.
WOW WHAT A WONDERFUL IMAGINATION OF THE BAPTIST CHURCHES HISTORY. BUT IT IS INACCURATE, INFLUENCED BY THE ANTI BAPTISTS DENOMINATIONS AND INDIVIDUALS AND NO OTHER INTEREST IS TO DENY THE PERPETUITY OR UNBROKEN HISTORY OF THE CHURCH OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. IT IS A PLAIN DENIAL OF THE PROMISE OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST TO HIS TRUE BAPTIST CHURCHES.
SPERAY REPLIES: Our Lord Jesus didn’t make any promises to any Baptist church since Baptists didn’t exists for the first 1500 years of Christianity. You call yourself a bishop, and I can’ help but wonder whose authority did you receive that title and what education did you receive that you would call simple basic historic facts, “imagination” and “inaccurate.” Your reply didn’t present any evidence whatsoever to back up your claim, such as: a historic record prior to the Protestant revolution that demonstrated the existence of any Baptist church, or the doctrine of absolute total immersion of persons at the age of reason only to receive Baptism prior to the 1500’s.
No, you don’t present anything at all to show that I’m wrong.
If you read the bible you would have the answer.
The first church was on the day of Pentecost when the people were praying.
The catholic church follows their own rules and not the bible.
No man or church is above God.
The Catholic Church follows the Bible and its own rules and laws. The rest of what you say is correct. The Catholic Church is under Christ and its first day was Pentecost.
The difference between a Protestant and a Catholic? Catholics read history.
Please don’t group all Baptists together. Just because there are many sects that call themselves “Baptists” that does not mean that we are all adherents of Calvin or Luther.
SPERAY REPLIES: All Baptists who believe in Faith alone, and the Bible Alone are adherents of Calvin and Luther. That’s just a fact!
A name is only a name and does not mean much in many cases. As far as history goes, you can (and did) make up your own version to try to prove your point.
SPERAY REPLIES: I didn’t make up anything. To say that I did is a lie!
If you want people to believe what you are trying to convey, you should use scripture verses to prove your history
SPERAY REPLIES: The Catholic Church gave the world the Bible in 380 AD. Without the Catholic Church, there is no Bible as we have it. Baptists use the translations provide by other Protestant denominations such as the Anglican’s King James Version. Verses can be use to convey history insofar as how they were interpreted throughout history. The Catholic Church holds the historic interpretation. The Baptists don’t.
and not just think one should believe you just because you say it.
SPERAY REPLIES: You’re to believe it as it has always been taught. Perhaps you should answer the 5 questions I ask from the article.
Why don’t you do the same treatise as you did above specifically on Independent Baptists.
SPERAY REPLIES: Independent Baptists hold to many of the same heresies first invented from the original Protestants and the first Baptists of the 1600’s.
Your eyes may be opened and you might even see some the errors and fallacies associated with the Catholic (“Universal”) Church. Nice try anyway…
SPERAY REPLIES: TRY ME. Show me just one doctrinal error of the Catholic Church.
Hi Mr. There is too many mistake in your tesis.
SPERAY: You’ve not shown one mistake I’ve made yet.
Tertulian was a catholic who convert to montanist, he even got the doctrine of Trinity from them and other the tru doctrines.
SPERAY: Tertullian got the doctrine of the Trinity from the Catholic Church, not from Montanism. Sorry, but you’re wrong!
You need to repent and follow the tru doctrine.
SPERAY: I repent everyday for my sins, but I follow true doctrine which comes from the Catholic Church founded by Christ, not the baptist churches founded by mere men reinventing religion based on silly interpretation of the Bible that was formed by the Catholic Church over 1400 years before men invented the baptist religions.
James said that if you know how to do good, but if dont do it its a sin.
SPERAY: All Christians know that refusing to do good is a sin.
Our doctrine make sense, it will not make sense if you saved by Jesus and then you lose it again. Galatian 2:21
SPERAY: Your comment doesn’t make sense and you misinterpreted Galatians. The Baptist religions don’t make sense because they imply that Jesus didn’t really die for everyone, but only the elect. Baptists believe that God doesn’t give all men the grace to be saved and so Christ cries with crocodile tears as He tells them to follow Him which no man can do without grace which only God can give. I’m sorry but the Baptist religions are SATANIC and I make no apologies for saying so. You’re only fooling yourself if you think that you’re saved. You’re obviously not a Christian whatsoever since you reject the historic Christian faith as it was handed down. I’ll be glad to go doctrine by doctrine with you to prove that you don’t really follow your Bible even at face value.
Any doctrine that requires anything extra is a false doctrine.
SPERAY: Any religion that denies what Christ said is needed for salvation is a false religion. Christ said, Baptism is needed, Faith is needed, obedience to the Commandments is needed, forgiving others is needed, and many more things, too.
Not by works Gal 2:16, Ro 3:20, 3:28, Ef. 2:8-9.
SPERAY: It’s not by works ALONE and we Catholics understand that faith and works is needed. Read James 2 which states, “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” (James 2:24) You reject this verse!
But it hard to debate these things wth
some that is not saved. Get save please
Jn 14:6. Rom 10:9 , 10, 13 Jn 3:16-18
SPERAY: I’m saved through a valid Baptism and the true faith which the Baptists have neither. I’ll gladly debate you and prove that you don’t believe in the Bible!
Where in the Bible Doris it speak about purgertory?
See here: Purgatory
sir what you said is right ,because catholics protestians,baptists are man made denominations,
SPERAY REPLIES: Sir, the Catholic religion is not a mere man made denomination. The Catholic Church was founded by the God/Man Jesus on the Apostles. That is a simple fact of history that can’t be logically rejected. I will admit that most Catholics don’t live up to the true faith. Myself included.
to live in this world ,those all came according to history of mankind, but holy bible is god given gift,to mankind,
SPERAY REPLIES: The Holy Bible didn’t exist until the Catholic Church put it together at the Council of Rome in 380 AD. The Holy Bible was written by men and according to the Catholic Church was inspired by God the Holy Ghost. If you accept the Holy Bible as “God given to mankind” then you have accepted the authority of the Catholic Church which first told mankind this fact.
so let us live according to that,
SPERAY REPLIES: According to the Holy Bible, you are to follow the Church Christ established, listen and obey the authorities of that Church whom Christ put in charge which are the Apostles and those successors whom those Apostles appointed. The Holy Bible also tells you in II Thess. 2:15 to hold fast to all traditions written (Bible is the Sacred Word of God) and unwritten (Sacred Tradition is the Word of God in practice) and to avoid traditions of men that nullifies the Word of God (written Word Bible and unwritten word of Tradition). The Catholic Church alone has no traditions of men that nullifies the Word of God unlike every other religion out there).
world wide religion which is called christianity,
SPERAY REPLIES: The Holy Bible warns against false Christianity and anathematizes it. How do we know what is true Christianity from false Christianity? Whatever tradition of man that nullifies the Holy Bible and Sacred Tradition. You must know your history and understand what has been passed down since the beginning.
please dont bring the concept of denominations in up coming children,say to them they are christians,
SPERAY REPLIES: Those who are not baptized, or knowingly follows a another gospel such as denying the sacraments that Christ established are not Christians. You aren’t to say to them “Christians.”
salvation is personal not hereditary,
SPERAY REPLIES: Absolutely. I don’t know anyone who says otherwise.
only through jesus you can enter in to internity.
SPERAY REPLIES: Absolutely! Only through Christ, which can only come by being a member of this Body, the Church, can you be saved.
our knowledge is 1% when compared to god,
SPERAY REPLIES: Wrong. It’s far less than that. However, Christ told us what knowledge we must have to be saved under ordinary circumstances.
so please dont dicourage the people faith through your useless history.
SPERAY REPLIES: There is nothing useless in studying Church history. You have failed to understand that your very own belief in Christ has come from the Catholic Church who wrote and established the very Bible you read. I’m generally speaking since many bibles aren’t Catholic translations, but all bibles have their roots in the first Bible which was put together by the Catholic Church in the fourth century.
instead,write great things about jesus thank you
SPERAY REPLIES: Now I agree with you here. I should have more great things about Christ rather than merely exposing anti-Christianity. The latest story about Christ saving the unbaptized Jewish woman because of her priest son’s prayers is a good start, is it not?
You mentioned JOSEPH SMITH. I read Baptist history. I did not encounter this name. However, I read John Smith instead of Joseph SMITH. As far as I know, he did not believe in eternal security of true believers. True Baptists believe in ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED.
with regard to Joseph Smith, he was not the founder of Baptist but rather the founder of Church of christ in the latter day saints.
SPERAY REPLIES: You’re right. I meant John Smyth. You’re the first person to catch and correct me on my blunder. It’s fixed now! Thanks for the head’s up! You’ll see that I had it right in the History of Churches page.
Back home, I was instructed that Mary was a mother of God, a servant of God & an espouse of God. Is this teaching still teaching of Roman CATHOLIC church? You can send text mssg through my cellphone +4169514275 Canada
SPERAY REPLIES: Yes. Mary is the Theotokos (God-bearer) since Jesus is God. She is the servant of God par excellence, since she is immaculate. She is the Spouse of God the Holy Ghost, since she has given herself perfectly to God and saying yes to God. We say in the Creed, I believe in Jesus Christ His Only Son Our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Ghost and born of the Virgin Mary.
I see. 1.
Is Bible is full of contradiction? With regards to salvation, one verse says “man is saved by grace apart from works & other verse says faith without works is dead. Eph.2:8,9; Titus 3:5, 2nd Tim. 1:9.
SPERAY REPLIES: In short, there’s a difference between different types of merit which concerns the aspect of how works apply. Man can’t be saved by his own works, but he can be saved by those works done through grace which God gives to man. In other words, it comes down to man’s response to grace but that initial grace comes from God. Even the response of man is done along with God’s grace. Therefore, there must be a distinction between different types of works that is being spoken about in Holy Scripture. This is a very deep subject but there are no real contradictions here.
2.
When will we receive salvation?
SPERAY REPLIES: In a sense, we are saved at baptism, but we haven’t received final salvation. Final salvation comes after the judgment we receive after death. We must continue to live in a state of grace from baptism until death. If we lose our salvation somewhere between baptism and death, we must confess our sins and be sorry for them to get back in the state of grace. That process may happen many times until death. Therefore, the state which we are in at death is the most important.
3.
Is salvation a gift of God or reward
SPERAY REPLIES: It’s both.
Thanks Steve for the history, it help me a lot. I also agree that the baptist are in great error and most of them don’t know their history. If they did they would repent! I have found another site that disagrees with the baptist too. The site is called http://www.eternalsecurity.us/bibical_theology.htm by Jeff Paton. I respect your opinions and views and would like for you to tell me what you think of this man ideas or views. Thanks 🙂
If infant bapistism is the true way then why dosen’t the Bible record Jesus being baptized as a baby?
SPERAY REPLIES: The Bible doesn’t say He didn’t either. However, Christ calls all to be baptized in John 3:5, and says not to hinder the children in Matt. 19:14, and Luke 18:15-16 actually used the word for infants. Baptism replaces circumcision Col. 2:11-12 and circumcision was on the 8th day. And in the Book of Acts 16:15, 16:33, and I. Cor 1:16 whole households were baptized. We also have very early Church fathers teaching infant baptism. NOT ONE CONDEMNED IT!
Didn’t Peter have a wife?
SPERAY REPLIES: Yes, Peter had a wife, and so did several popes in history. I wrote a book on the papacy. You should check it out.
I am a Free Will Baptist we do not believe once saved always saved
SPERAY REPLIES: That’s a good thing, but Free Will Baptists do believe in Sola Scriptura which is another man-made invention of Martin Luther who also invented once saved always saved.
Where can I learn more about the Catholic doctrine and why Catholics believe what they do. Please don’t think I am being rude I am just curious.
SPERAY REPLIES: 1. The Holy Bible.
2. The Roman Catechism, also known as the Catechism of the Council Trent. http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/trent/tindex.htm
3 The Ecumenical Councils and papal bulls, encyclicals, etc. which you can find in a book called Sources of Catholic Dogma or Denzinger: https://archive.org/details/TheSourcesOfCatholicDogma
I have read your history and I am not here to criticize your history. I do not know nor have time to challenge your history. What do know is that the Bible is the Word of God it was not written by Catholics as you said.
SPERAY REPLIES: All of the New Testament writers were Catholic Bishops. That’s a simple fact of history.
I know that no where in the bible was a baby ever Baptized.
SPERAY REPLIES: Then you don’t know your Bible very well, since it’s implied several times and baptism replaced circumcision.
I know that that when Phillip was with the Ethiopian. That he said what must I do to be saved and Philip said believe on The Lord Jesus Christ. Then he went down into to water to be baptized. Baptism followed salvation.
SPERAY REPLIES: Belief and Baptism are required as this story shows. If baptism wasn’t necessary, then there would be no need for baptism and great extremes to be baptized would be silly. HISTORY shows that every Christian thought it absolutely necessary to be baptized.
I know that that no where in the Bible does it talk about any place called purgatory.
SPERAY REPLIES: You don’t know the Bible very well. I wrote an entire article on the subject here: https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/category/purgatory/
The Bible forbids you from praying to dead people.
SPERAY REPLIES: I wrote a whole article on this subject here: https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2009/04/25/the-truth-about-the-blessed-virgin-mary-in-a-nutshell/
The bible says the preacher should only have one wife. So why are priest forbidden to marry?
SPERAY REPLIES: In the East, married men can become priests, but never have priests been allowed to marry. Your quote refers to something else, which I don’t have time to explain now.
I know that my salvation is not based on what I do but what he has done.
SPERAY REPLIES: Your salvation is based on what Christ has done AND what you do. It’s both as the Bible clearly says.
There are only 2 religions in this word the do religion and the done religion. The do religion is all about what I do. The done religion is about what Jesus has done for us. If a person is depending on their works to get them to heaven they are in trouble because the Bible says your works are as filthy rags. What do you say to the “Baptist” who was a drunk and tried to quit by his own works but never could. Then one night he goes to a Baptist church hears the Gospel the Holy Spirit calls him to salvation. He gets saved and his life is never the same? He walks with God he talks with God. God leads him. He is completely changed from the inside out.
SPERAY REPLIES: You have much to learn. No one can be in union with Christ who knowingly rejects the Church Christ established.
There is one church it is the Bride of Chist. The name the bible gives them is Christians.
SPERAY REPLIES: I wrote an article about this here: https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/christs-church-vs-satans-churches-in-a-nutshell/
The bible says in the book of the Revelation not to take away from or add to the scripture. The bible is all we need.
SPERAY REPLIES: Revelation says not to take away or add to Revelation, but you have just added to the very Bible you claim to follow. NO WHERE DOES IT SAY OR IMPLY THAT THE BIBLE IS ALL WE NEED!!!!!
If the doctrine the Catholics have is man made then it’s false if it comes from the bible then it is truth.
SPERAY REPLIES: Your doctrine that “all we need is the Bible” is false for several reasons which I explain here:https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2013/10/22/a-closer-look-at-sola-scriptura-and-the-historical-alternative-in-400-words/
You are correct when you say there is only one church you just got the name wrong. The church is called Christians “little Christ.”
SPERAY REPLIES: The Catholic Church is that Church founded by Christ as I explained and as history proves.
Is Baptism required for someone go get to heaven? If so what about the thief on the cross?
SPERAY REPLIES: Baptism is required under normal circumstances which I’ve explained numerous times all throughout my website.
And if works are required what works did he do.
SPERAY REPLIES: He loved Jesus and offered himself up to him. He didn’t just believe.
You say the priest who molest little boys should be put to death and I agree but that is not what the Catholic Church teaches.
SPERAY REPLIES: Oh yes it does! The counterfeit catholic church doesn’t teach it.
So why don’t you have the same view as the Catholics on the death penalty?
SPERAY REPLIES: I do. I don’t have the same view as counterfeit Catholics.
You put a lot of stock in being a member of the Catholic Church but church membership does not save you.
SPERAY REPLIES: Never said it did, but you also can’t be outside of the Church and be saved either since the Church is the Body of Christ.
Jesus alone saved and once He saves a person they become children of God. What kind of Father would God be if after He saved you He unsaved you because you did something wrong? Last think you said baptist believe in the doctrine of the elect. Some baptist do but the bible contradicts that doctrine. The bible says whosoever will may come.
SPERAY REPLIES: Your replies shows that you have much to learn.
Then you don’t know your Bible very well, since it’s implied several times and baptism replaced circumcision.
Why pray to the Virgin Mary ?
SPERAY REPLIES: Read here: The Truth about the Blessed Virgin Mary.
The Bible says to pray to God in the name of Jesus.Why do the priests wear robes to preform a mass?
SPERAY REPLIES: The mass is the wedding feast of the Lamb, it’s the sacrifice of Jesus, it’s the worship of God, therefore, the priests wear the uniform of the sacred office to dignify the office and ceremony.
We are not under the Law anymore but under grace.Why call a priest Father?The Bible says we have one Father and he is in heaven.
SPERAY REPLIES: The Bible also says to honor you Father and Mother. Who’s your Father and Mother this law is speaking of. St. Paul says that he’s a a Father in I Cor. 4:15, Phlm 4:10.
Why confess my sins to a priest ?When only God can forgive sin.ETC.
SPERAY REPLIES: Read here: Confession
I became a part of Gods church when I excepted his son as my Savior and chose to follow Jesus. Please answer my questions. I once was a Catholic I never heard salvation preached.Some tell me the Catholic Church has changed over the yrs.If it was right in the first place why would they change.Confusing to young people!Old people are wondering what’s going on with the church. My body is the temple of God.Therefore I am part of the body of Christ.
SPERAY REPLIES: I answered your questions. Yes, the church you were raised in was the counterfeit Catholic Church, not the real Catholic Church.
Interesting site……..I have been following the current “Church”situation for over 40 plus years…..As far as the “Baptists” claiming baptism doesn’t save because it is a work, let’s look into the situations. They say I person must pray the “Sinners Prayer” in order to testify..The mouth moves and the brain cells exert energy which can be measured by an EEG test..So something is done.It’s the testimony of Baptism, which saves, because the Lord said to do it.However the question of “unity” under Rome exists.For example the Apostle Saint Peter did send out the various Apostles, all over the world..St Mark to Africa,St Thomas to India, St Andrew to Byzantium..Saint Peter went to Rome via Antioch..With no telephone, internet,etc, may I inquire as to how they kept under the Pope of Rome? Also, be advised please that I am not endorsing the “Eastern Orthodox” Church system either, for various reasons which can be explained ..thank you…………..
Interestingly, St. Peter wrote in his epistle, “Baptism now saves you.”
“Kept under the pope of Rome” means submission to his authority. When differences or questions arose, synods were called and letters were written. The Church (fathers, saints, etc.) has always understood Peter and his successors as having the final say. Two quick examples:
“Owing to the sudden and repeated calamities and misfortunes which have befallen us, we must acknowledge that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the matters in dispute among you, beloved; and especially that abominable and unholy sedition, alien and foreign to the elect of God, which a few rash and self-willed persons have inflamed to such madness that your venerable and illustrious name, worthy to be loved by all men, has been greatly defamed. . . . Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobey the things which have been said by him [God] through us [i.e., that you must reinstate your leaders], let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger. . . . You will afford us joy and gladness if being obedient to the things which we have written through the Holy Spirit, you will root out the wicked passion of jealousy” (Pope Clement’s Letter to the Corinthians 1, 58–59, 63 A.D. 80).
“Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father” …You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force” ((Ignatius of Antioch’s Letter to the Romans 1:1, 3:1).
Japan went 300 years without priests and without any way to communicate with the Church outside of Japan, yet they were “kept under the pope of Rome.” So the problem of no contact such a phone, internet, etc. is not really an issue.
Thank you for a response.Especially pointing out that in the Scripture, St Peter did state, “Baptism now saves you”. A disconnect of Baptism the way some Protestants do, is actually denigrating the Bible as not being infallible.When possible Baptism in the early church was by immersion. The writings of early Christians, for example, Hippolytus, substantiate this.The Baptist’s,question of the Thief on the Cross not needing to be Baptized, is actually denying the advent of the New Testament, when Jesus the Christ said “It Is Finished”… Before that and His rising from the dead Baptism would not have been “Christian Baptism”…..Although I agree in essence about the Christians/Catholics in Japan being out of touch for 300 years, there remains a question. They were originally, as was St Ignatius, under St Peter’s Jurisdiction..Other churches were under the”Jurisdiction/Charismos/Ordinations” etc, of other Apostles…Similarly people are far flung, from real Priests/Bishops in this present time of turmoil. With out a valid Pope of Rome how does one stay,or become, or return to being Catholic?……sincerely, Allan……
I think there’s two parts to your question.
First, jurisdiction in the East with respect to the West. The Council of Chalcedon gives a good look into the question: “Bishop Paschasinus, guardian of the Apostolic See, stood in the midst [of the Council Fathers] and said, ‘We received directions at the hands of the most blessed and apostolic bishop of the Roman city [Pope Leo I], who is the head of all the churches, which directions say that Dioscorus is not to be allowed to sit in the [present] assembly, but that if he should attempt to take his seat, he is to be cast out. This instruction we must carry out” (Acts of the Council, session 1, 451 AD).
“After the reading of the foregoing epistle [The Tome of Leo], the most reverend bishops cried out: ‘This is the faith of the fathers! This is the faith of the apostles! So we all believe! Thus the orthodox believe! Anathema to him who does not thus believe! Peter has spoken thus through Leo!’” (Acts of the Council, session 2).
In America, the Church is under the jurisdiction, ordinations, etc. with the American bishops, but those American bishops are under the jurisdiction of Rome. After the seven synods of Baltimore, a decree by Pope Pius IX in 1858 conferred on Archbishops of Baltimore “prerogative of place.”
But now to your real questions about today’s mess and staying, becoming, or returning to being Catholic. Great questions that I could hardly write in this section, but to be very brief, I stay Catholic by maintaining the Faith as it has always been held just like any long period of interregnum. To become or return to the Catholic Church, I would suggest one to find a valid Catholic priest and follow the normal course of events. If no priest is available, then I guess a good profession of Faith and living it to the best of your ability would be all that you can do until a priest becomes available. I would search long and hard and travel to whatever distance necessary for at least the beginning. I traveled 15 hours for my son’s First Communion.
We’re in a terrible situation right now.
THANK YOU for your responses which are clear and concise..Might there be ulterior motives for the Baptist/Protestant school of theology, known as security of the believer(once saved always saved)..For example Gerard Cauvin the father of John Calvin was in deep legal trouble. His brother had to bail him out.Could this be a reason for Calvinism’s belief in ‘no free’ will? The Sovereign will of God wanted this to happen.Because of the original sin humans no longer know right from wrong..(over simplification, but true)..In a different vein, many Americans/Canadians, etc have been baptized several times.Many of you all reading this were not even born when I was baptised, by two different churches..Many years later again through an “Eastern” church…Even amongst Traditional Catholics there’s question of validity of orders, ie:, Thuc Ordinations,vs Mendez Ordinations, and more……once more, sincerely, Allan/North Dakota………………..
Luther’s On the Bondage of the Will was published 5 yrs before Calvin broke from the Church. This writing has the same implications. It would seem that all of the Reformers had their real problem the authority of the Church and it was slippery slope from there. Luther already was over scrupulous and then fell in love with a nun. Poor Christian witness from Catholics at that time contributed to the mess. You may be right about Calvin, but he may have been influenced by Luther. New ideas always seem to attract people. In Calvin and Luther’s case, the new idea was self condemning since it implies that the Church failed for over a millennium despite Christ’s statement about the gates of hell. The conclusion was that true Christianity ceased to exist for a long period of time until they (reformers) restored it. It’s really no different than Mormonism’s claim of total apostasy until Joseph Smith.
As for Baptism and Holy Orders, there would be no need to rebaptise anyone unless the correct matter, form, and/or intention was missing. The same principle applies to the sacrament of Orders with the addition of correct or valid minister. With baptism, any person can validly baptize, even a pagan.
I apologize if I missed your latter point. It’s true that questions arise about the validity of orders amongst Trads. We want to make sure our masses and confessions are valid.
Why are always coming against one another, ugh!
SPERAY REPLIES: Because of sin! But notice that you are now coming up against me and my position. Is it okay that you attack me, but I can’t defend myself? Actually, I don’t mind that you made this comment. I’m glad, really. It gives me a chance to deal with your comment because I’m sure many other people feel the same way as you.
… Guess what, we all believe Jesus Christ of the Bible to be truly God and man (born in Bethlehem, birthed by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary died for us).
SPERAY REPLIES: Demons in hell also believe in Jesus, the Bible, Mary’s holiness, etc.
We all believe Jesus is returning for his church (all of us).
SPERAY RELIES: Only those who are validly baptized and believe in all truth and don’t knowingly reject any truth are part of the Church. That means only a very, very few people are part of the Church.
We all believe God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit!
SPERAY REPLIES: So do demons according to St. James’ epistle. Where are they?
We all believe salvation by grace through faith!
SPERAY REPLIES: Not exactly. Catholics believe that salvation by faith and works, and Baptists believe in Faith alone, which is contrary to St. James’ epistle.
And we all believe in the truth of the Holy Bible!
SPERAY REPLIES: Actually, almost no one really believes in the truth of the Holy Bible. Do you believe that women have no authority over men as I Tim. 2 and the whole history of the Church have taught? That’s just one Bible truth. No one really believes in the Bible! Everybody picks and chooses what truths they will accept from it and then rationalize away everything else, like: women shall have no authority over men.
We ARE brothers and sisters in the Kingdom of Heaven…..
SPERAY REPLIES: No we are not. St. Paul teaches in Galatians that anyone who brings forth another gospel is anathema, which is outside of the Kingdom of Heaven. Anyone who says women and men are equal in authority brings a new gospel. I’m using this one doctrine to prove a point, but I could use many others as well.
AND God uses the catholic church, the baptist church, and every other church that teaches this.
SPERAY REPLIES: God uses the devil to teach us about truth, too. Your point is moot.
If we would spend LESS time debating ONE ANOTHER on our differences and more time teaching people about the real Christ, Cults and the Kingdom of Darkness would win less people. STOP FIGHTING and hurting one another and tell people about our KING! The fighting is useless because none of us are going away, anyway. Kapeesh?
SPERAY REPLIES: I will never stop fighting as long as so-called Christians reject the KING in the Eucharist and the other 7 sacraments that Christ gave us. I will never stop fighting as long as so-called Christians continue to bring forth a new gospel and give real Christianity a bad name! I’m in a war and I will not side with the enemy to tell people about our King that they don’t really believe anyway! Kapeesh?
MARY? THE “SPOUSE OF GOD???!!!” WHERE IN THE BIBLE CAN I READ THIS??
SPERAY REPLIES: The Church is the Spouse of Christ, therefore, Mary, being the woman who bore Christ, would be known as the Spouse of the Holy Spirit. However, you won’t find in the bible, “Mary, the Spouse of God” or something along those lines. Interestingly enough, you’ll find nuns who consider God as their Spouse. There’s several stories of Christ placing mystical rings on saints such as St. Catherine of Sienna and Rose of Lima, making them His spouse.
Do you have a problem with Mary being known as the Spouse of God?
RAISED IN A CATHOLIC SCHOOL WAS NEVER TOLD NOR ENCOURAGED TO READ A BIBLE. NEVER LEARNED WHO IS JESUS CHRIST.
SPERAY REPLIES: That’s terrible! Were you raised in Catholic schools or counterfeit Catholic schools?????
IT WAS MAINLY MAN-MADE TRADITIONS AND RITUALS.
SPERAY REPLIES: There’s nothing wrong with man-made traditions and rituals provided that don’t nullify the Word of God. Every religion is full of man-made traditions and rituals. The Baptist religion itself is a man-made tradition, which is full of man-made rituals, some of them good, some not good.
That was te dumbest explanation of the “REAL” history of baptist I have ever read.
SPERAY REPLIES: The simple facts are dumb to you?
This coming from a denomination that believes the Pope and church leaders have the authority to re write New Testament scripture,
SPERAY REPLIES: The Catholic Church is not a denomination since it didn’t sect. And the Catholic Church didn’t re-write the New Testament. Where did you get such nonsense?
killed anyone during the dark ages that didn’t adhere to the Catholic faith,
SPERAY REPLIES: Not true at all. Again, where do you get your info?
and had a recent pope (John Paul) that said anyone, including atheists could go to heaven if they followed the beatitudes.
SPERAY REPLIES: John Paul was not a true pope so it doesn’t matter what he said about anything.
This is REALLY a scholarly website.
You are lost, in need of a new birth and to come out from among her (the Whore of Babylon and the Catholic Church) and be separate. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone, nothing less, nothing more. BTW I am a former Catholic saved by grace THEN properly baptised by immersion.
I see you didn’t read the article at all. Faith alone is a man-made doctrine that contradicts James 2:24 which states: You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. If you are a former Catholic, then you aren’t saved at all.
You seem to get all your information from the Catholic Church, buy saying the church elders said so. Tell me this , how could Peter be the first pope as it is against the catholic church for a pope to be married, and if you say he wasn’t married how ever did he have a mother in law?
Speray Replies: Peter was married and we’ve had several married popes. We have a pope whose father was also a pope.
I’m guessing that the catholic book left that part out ,
Speray Replies: What Catholic book are you talking about? It’s no secret that Peter and several other popes had wives.
as they have left out so much other of God’s own words.
Speray Replies: Name one thing the Catholic Church has left out of God’s own words. It’s all the non-Catholics that have left out God’s own words. For instance, Protestants/Evangelicals/Fundamentalists have dropped 7 books right out of the Bible.
And why is it they tell me that I have to go to a man to get forgiveness when Christ is the high preist ? I do agree that catholics don’t adore mary they worship the sinner.
Speray Replies: I answered your question in an article found here: Confession
https://archive.org/stream/historyofwelshba00davi/historyofwelshba00davi_djvu.txt
There WAS at least one Baptist church in 63 A.D.
Nope! The link you provided is ridiculous. Pay close attention to the article and see how it undercuts itself in several different ways.
Today, a tremendous amount of information can be found on the Internet, declaring the beliefs of the Cathars to be in agreement with all kinds of heretical, New Age ideas. But this was not what was believed about them by the Reformers. To give a comparison, one could also find countless books, websites, essays and commentaries about Jesus and the Apostles, teaching that they held to mystical ideas that are decidedly anti-Christian. It is important to remember that (as with the Waldenses) most of the Cathar/Albigensian writings were destroyed by the Inquisition. Furthermore, most of the “documentation” against them comes from their enemies who persecuted, tortured and mass murdered them.
While they were condemned by Rome overall, there are times when Catholic sources shine a light of truth concerning them. For example, while Dominic condemned the Cathars as heretics, he also spoke of their “zealous preaching” and “apostolic humility,” as well as the austerity of their lives. The following is the testimony of a thirteenth century friar named James Capelli, who was lector at a Franciscan convent in Milan. Writing in about 1240 A.D., (some 30 years after the Inquisition against them began) he specifically confronted the fact that many rumors and slanders were spoken against the Cathars, which he believed were false:
“… the rumor of the fornication which is said to prevail
among them is most false. For it is true that once a month,
either by day or by night, in order to avoid gossip by the people,
men and women meet together, not, as some lyingly say,
for purposes of fornication, but so that they may hear
preaching and make confession to their presiding official,
as though from his prayers pardon for their sins would ensue.
They are wrongfully wounded in popular rumor by many
malicious charges of blasphemy from those who say that they
commit many shameful and horrid acts of which they are
innocent. And, therefore, they vaunt themselves to be disciples
of Christ, who said, ‘If they have persecuted me, they will
also persecute you,’ and, ‘You shall be hated by all men for
my name’s sake.’ And, indeed, they believe fulfilled in
them the text, ‘Blessed are ye when they shall revile you
and reproach you and speak all that is evil against you
untruly for my sake.’”
(Source: Heresies of the High Middle Ages, by Walter
Legett Wakefield & Austin Patterson Evans, pp. 305-306)
In his “History of the Christian Church,” Jones writes that, even according to the Inquisitors, the Albigenses were not guilty of any wrong doing. He writes:
“… it is remarkable that in the examination of these
people, they … were condemned for speculations, or
rather for virtuous rules of action, which all in power
accounted heresies. They said a Christian church ought
to consist of only good people; a church had no power
to frame any constitutions; it was not right to take oaths;
it was not lawful to kill mankind; a man ought not to
be delivered up to the officers of justice to be converted;
the benefits of society belong alike to all the members
of it; faith without works could not save a man; the church
ought not to persecute any, even the wicked: — the law
of Moses was no rule for Christians; there was no need
of priests, especially of wicked ones; the sacraments, and
orders, and ceremonies of the church of Rome were
futile, expensive, oppressive, and wicked …”
(Source: “The History of the Christian Church,” by
William Jones, p. 455).”
THE MANICHEAN ACCUSATION
David Cloud, in his book, “Rome & the Bible” documents some of the history of how Rome attempted to justify the Inquisition by accusing her victims of Gnostic/Manichean heresy. He writes that:
“… the Roman Catholic authorities falsely labeled many
Bible-believing people in later centuries – such as the Albigenses
and the Waldensians – as Manicheans.”
(David W. Cloud, Rome & the Bible, p. 60)
Cloud goes on to document the following:
“Respected Baptist historian John Christian makes the
following comments: ‘It is now clearly known that the Paulicans
were not Manicheans …. the same thing may probably be said
of the Albigenses. The Albigenses were oppressed on account
of this sentiment, which accusation was also made against the
Waldenses. Care must be taken on this point, and too prompt
credence should not be given to the accuser. The Roman Catholic
Church sought diligently for excuses to persecute. Even Luther
was declared by the Synod of Sens to be a Manichean. The
celebrated Archbishop Usher says that the charge ‘of Manicheanism
on the Albigensian sect is evidently false.’”
(Rome & the Bible, by David W. Cloud, p. 60; citing Acland,
The Glorious Recovery of the Vadois, 1xvii, London, 1857)
THE WITNESS OF AN ENEMY
Even the famed Enlightenment philosopher, Voltaire, who was an avowed enemy of Christianity, acknowledged the generally held view concerning these earlier bible believing groups. Consistent with other testimonies, Voltaire reveals that the name “Manichean” was given to anyone who was declared a heretic by Rome. When writing about the injustices of centuries past, he said:
“Furthermore, there were men who wanted no law
but the gospels, and who preached ideas almost the same
as those held today by the Protestants. They were called Vaudois
(Waldenses), because they were numerous in the valleys
of Piedmont; Albigensians, from the town of Albi; Goodmen,
from the consistent goodness of their lives; and finally
Manicheans, the name then given to heretics in general.”
(Of the Crusade Against the People of the Languedoc,
by Voltaire, 1756, emphasis added)
Again, we draw attention to the fact that the name “Manichean” was “given to heretics in general.” As David Cloud showed earlier, even Martin Luther was called a Manichean. While most of the writings of the Albigensians and Waldensians have been destroyed, those of Luther have not. We know what he believed, and his doctrine was clearly not Manicheanism.
It’s speaking of the biological or adoptive parents. That’s the what I thought as soon as I saw it. Please stop giving extreme interpretation.
So you can call someone your father, right?
You can’t call someone your SPIRITUAL father, unless it’s God.
Maybe you should tell St. Paul that he didn’t know what he’s talking about.
1 Cor.4:15: For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
Phlm.1:10: I appeal to you for my child, Ones’imus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment.