“And now I am not in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou has given me; that they may be one, as we also are….That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one: I in them, and thou in me; that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me (John 17:11, 21-23).”
Pope Pius XI declared, “The Church possesses-a fact known to all-as one of its visible marks, impressed on it by God, that of a world-wide unity…. At the close of His mortal life, he impressed upon the Apostles in the strongest possible terms the supreme need of this unity. (John xvii, 11, 21, 22) In His last soul-stirring prayer he asked His Father for this unity and His prayer was heard: “He was heard for his reverence.” (Hebrews v, 7)” (Ecclesiam Dei, par. 1, 1923)
Our Lord prayed that His Church would be one in faith and in the Holy Trinity as witness to the world. The Catholic Church has reaffirmed many times that the Church is one in faith to the exclusion of heresy and schism by nature and Pope Pius XI declared that this prayer of unity by Christ was heard.
When Vatican 2 speaks about the unity of the Church, it’s not the Catholic and Biblical understanding. Rather, Vatican 2 teaches the Anglican and Methodist understanding of the mark of oneness, where all who profess to be Christian, despite all the doctrinal differences, are unified as the Church of Christ through baptism but divided in doctrine. [1]
John Paul II acknowledged in his document Ut Unum Sint – ‘On commitment to Ecumenism’ that the Church of Christ is divided and footnoting the source coming from the Decree of Ecumenism, Unitatis Redentegratio of Vatican 2:
How is it possible to remain divided, if we have been “buried” through Baptism in the Lord’s death, in the very act by which God, through the death of his Son, has broken down the walls of division? Division “openly contradicts the will of Christ, provides a stumbling block to the world, and inflicts damage on the most holy cause of proclaiming the Good News to every creature”.5
7. “The Lord of the Ages wisely and patiently follows out the plan of his grace on behalf of us sinners. In recent times he has begun to bestow more generously upon divided Christians remorse over their divisions and a longing for unity. Everywhere, large numbers have felt the impulse of this grace, and among our separated brethren also there increases from day to day a movement, fostered by the grace of the Holy Spirit, for the restoration of unity among all Christians. Taking part in this movement, which is called ecumenical, are those who invoke the Triune God and confess Jesus as Lord and Saviour. They join in not merely as individuals but also as members of the corporate groups in which they have heard the Gospel, and which each regards as his Church and, indeed, God’s. And yet almost everyone, though in different ways, longs that there may be one visible Church of God, a Church truly universal and sent forth to the whole world that the world may be converted to the Gospel and so be saved, to the glory of God”.6
The official interpretation of Vatican 2 by John Paul II is that the Church of Christ is divided, that it’s contrary to the will of Christ, and it’s longing for unity, which implies that it’s the permissive will of Christ that the Church is divided.
After telling us how the Church of Christ is divided among the different Protestant and Eastern Orthodox professions, John Paul continued, “To believe in Christ means to desire unity; to desire unity means to desire the Church; to desire the Church means to desire the communion of grace which corresponds to the Father’s plan from all eternity. Such is the meaning of Christ’s prayer: ‘Ut unum sint. ’”
In the same document, John Paul 2 approved the Balamand statement which declared, “The division between the Churches of the East and of the West has never quelled the desire for unity wished by Christ.”
We also saw in the Joint Declaration with the Lutherans, 1999, approved by John Paul 2, “44. We give thanks to the Lord for this decisive step forward on the way to overcoming the division of the church. We ask the Holy Spirit to lead us further toward that visible unity which is Christ’s will.”
For Vatican 2 and John Paul 2, Christ’s will and prayer “that they may be one, as we also are” is merely a wish for unity that has not yet been actualized. It means Our Lord’s prayer has utterly failed for 2000 years. What good is Our Lord’s intercessory prayer if nothing is actually accomplished from it except maybe getting men to work towards a goal? It would mean that Our Lord’s prayer is nothing more than a wish and inspiration. It has no real power or authority. It reminds me of the Jesus Seminar (group of 50 American heretics) saying the muliplication of loaves was Jesus getting men to share their food rather than miraculously multiplying it. It makes Christ out to be less than God Almighty, much like the Arian Jesus.
And if Our Lord’s prayer failed at the close of His mortal life when it counts most, what’s that say about our prayers? Did Christ have less faith than a mustard seed? That’s the implication of Vatican 2 and John Paul II’s butchering of Scripture, which is absolute blasphemy and a blatant rejection of Pope Pius XI’s teaching (and Heb. 5:7) that Christ’s prayer was heard and actualized in a undivided Church of Christ.
Footnote:
[1] Vatican 2 theologian: Fr. Edward Schillebeeckx, one of the main drafters of Vatican II documents, stated: “It is difficult to say that the Catholic Church is still one, Catholic, apostolic, when one says that the others (other Christian communities) are equally one, Catholic and apostolic, albeit to a lesser degree. —- at Vatican Council II, the Roman Catholic Church officially abandoned its monopoly over the Christian religion.” story110305.pdf (novusordowatch.org)
Lumen Gentium, Ch. 2, The people of God:
15. “For several reasons the Church recognizes that it is joined to those who, though baptized and so honored with the Christian name, do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve communion under the successor of St. Peter.”
Unitatis Redintegratio (Decree on Ecumenism)
1.“Yet almost all, though in different ways, long for the one visible Church of God, that truly universal Church.”
3. “significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace…separated churches and communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation.”
4. “Nevertheless, the divisions among Christians prevent the Church from realizing in practice the fullness of Catholicity proper to her, in those of her sons and daughters who, though attached to her by baptism, are yet separated from full communion with her. Furthermore, the Church herself finds it more difficult to express in actual life her full Catholicity in all its bearings.”
Unitatis Redintegratio, Ch. 3, Churches and ecclesial communities separated from the Roman apostolic see:
13-15. “We now turn our attention to the two chief types of division as they affect the seamless robe of Christ. The first division occurred in the east, when the dogmatic formulas of the councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon were challenged, and later when ecclesiastical communion between the eastern patriarchates and the Roman See was dissolved… Everyone knows with what great love the Christians of the east celebrate the sacred liturgy… Hence, through the celebration of the Holy Eucharist in each of these Churches, the Church of God is built up and grows, and through concelebration their communion with one another is made manifest.”
Besides Vatican 2 and Ut Unum Sint, there’s the Balamand Statement, 1993, 7. The division between the Churches of the East and of the West has never quelled the desire for unity wished by Christ. Rather this situation, which is contrary to the nature of the Church, has often been for many the occasion to become more deeply conscious of the need to achieve this unity, so as to be faithful to the Lord’s commandment.
14. It is in this perspective that the Catholic Churches and the Orthodox Churches recognize each other as Sister Churches, responsible together for maintaining the Church of God in fidelity to the divine purpose, most especially in what concerns unity. According to the words of Pope John Paul II, the ecumenical endeavour of the Sister Churches of East and West, grounded in dialogue and prayer, is the search for perfect and total communion which is neither absorption nor fusion but a meeting in truth and love (cf. Slavorum Apostoli, n. 27).
On May 25, 1995, John Paul II, in Ut Unum Sint, n. 59, approved the Balamand declaration.
JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church, Nov. 1, 1999
44. We give thanks to the Lord for this decisive step forward on the way to overcoming the division of the church. We ask the Holy Spirit to lead us further toward that visible unity which is Christ’s will.
Here we see the document saying Lutherans are part of the Body of Christ the Church, and that the Church of Christ is not even visibly unified. John Paul II approved and blessed the Joint Declaration.
In a Jan. 22, 2013 L’Osservatore Romano article titled: The divisions among Christians disfigure the face of the Church, it was written that Benedict XVI said, “One of the gravest sins ‘that disfigure the Church’s face’ is the sin ‘against her visible unity’, and, in particular, ‘the historical divisions which separated Christians and which have not yet been surmounted’”.
The two references of the “Church’s face” and “Against her visible unity” is a point blank denial of the dogma that the Church is one in faith. The unity of the Church is the visible mark of the church.
Therefore, the Vatican 2 popes teach the heresy that the Church of Christ is not one or unified in faith in the Catholic sense, but rather holds to the Protestant sense.
Speray's Catholicism in a Nutshell 
There is one thing that unites the new religion. Its rejection of Catholic dogma/doctrine. John Paul II’s real desire was that they may all be one in the Novus Ordo religion.
There is One True Church, it’s the Catholic Church. V2 sect and the heretics aren’t parts of the One True Church of Christ.
Hi Steven. Just passing through for now. I’ll comment in more detail later.
Do you consider the CE taught “heresy” in its “Re-Union of Christendom” Article: “Still, in another and broader sense of the term, which is also the more usual and is followed in the present article, Christendom includes not merely the Catholic Church, but, together with it, the many other religious communions which have either directly or indirectly, separated from it, and yet, although in conflict both with it and among themselves as to various points of doctrine and practice agree with it in this: that they look up to our Lord Jesus Christ as the Founder of their Faith, and claim to make His teaching the rule of their lives. As these separated communities when massed together, indeed in some cases even of themselves, count a vast number of souls, among whom many are conspicuous for their religious earnestness, this extension of the term Christendom to include them all has its solid justification … Happily a new spirit has lately come over these dissentient Christians, numbers of whom are becoming keenly sensitive to the paralyzing effects of division and an active reunion movement has arisen which, If far from being as widespread and solid as one could wish, is at least cherished on all sides by devout minds …
We may safely leave to the Providence of God to determine what course the present reunion movement shall ultimately take, and meanwhile we may emphasize the substantial point that Catholics and other reunionists have in common: their mutual desire to see the barriers that separate them removed.” https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15132a.htm
I agree the Prayer of Our Lord is fulfilled in His Catholic Church. But just like His Mediatorship does not preclude subordinate intercessors, His Prayer does not preclude subordinate efforts and prayers for Christians – who still only belong to the Church “in voto” – to Catholic Unity. Likewise, Our Lord prayed for St. Peter to have unfailing faith. That doesn’t mean we also should not add our prayers to His prayer. He prays through us also, and in the same way He prays, through the prayers of His Church, for all the baptized to return to His Church’s Unity.
Holy Office decree: “The Catholic Church, although she does not take part in congresses and other conventions called “ecumenical,” yet has never ceased, as is clear from many Pontifical documents, nor will she in future ever cease, to follow with the most intense interest and to promote by earnest prayers to God, all efforts toward the attainment of what is so dear to the Heart of Christ Our Lord, namely, that all who believe in Him “may be made perfect in one.”[1]”
From: https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/on-the-ecumenical-movement-2070 (Under Pope Ven. Pius XII)
God Bless.
When you understand Catholic theology properly, you’ll have no problem with Pius XII and CE.
I don’t have a problem with Pope Ven. Pius XII and the Catholic Encyclopedia! I agree with them that Evangelicals and Orthodox can be called Christians.
SPERAY REPLIES: I already told you that they can be called Christians but in conventional language. They are not Christians strickly speaking. St. Robert Bellarmine: “A pope who is a manifest heretic automatically (per se) ceases to be pope and head, just as he ceases automatically to be a Christian and a member of the Church.” Notice that he’s saying a heretic is not a Christian. Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum…. “5 So the Christian is a Catholic as long as he lives in the body: cut off from it he becomes a heretic.” THE POPE IS TEACHING THAT A CHRISTIAN IS A CATHOLIC AND IF YOU’RE NOT A CATHOLIC YOU’RE NOT A CHRISTIAN.
The CE only mentions those who look up to Jesus Christ as the Founder of their Faith.
SPERAY REPLIES: No, it’s clear that Catholics are true Christians. The others are not.
Vatican II says they must believe in the Trinity and confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
SPERAY REPLIES: Most all heretics do that. Pope Leo XIII declared that only Catholics are Christians. Vatican 2 says heretics have a right to the Christian name, which is a total lie!!!
As the Church has always held Trinitarian Baptism to be valid and distinguished it from non-Trinitarian ones, so She has always held faith in the Trinity to be sufficient for salvation, provided a person is in good faith about other articles. See the Athanasian Creed.
SPERAY REPLIES: The Athanasian Creed is more than that. Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence: “Sixthly, we offer to the envoys that compendious rule of the faith composed by most blessed Athanasius, which is as follows:
“Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the
Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and
inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the
Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity,
and the Trinity in unity; neither confounding the persons, nor
dividing the substance; for there is one person of the Father,
another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit, their glory is
equal, their majesty coeternal…and in this Trinity there is
nothing first or later, nothing greater or less, but all three
persons are coeternal and coequal with one another, so that in
every respect, as has already been said above, both unity in
Trinity, and Trinity in unity must be worshipped. Therefore
let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the
Trinity.
“But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully
believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ…the
Son of God is God and man… This is the Catholic faith;
unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot
be saved.”
Mage Fenton on the Holy Office Letter on Fr. Feeney: “most theologians teach that the minimum explicit content of supernatural and salvific faith includes not only God’s action as the Rewarder of good and the Punisher of evil but also the mysteries of the Blessed Trinity and Incarnation”. Do you agree with Msgr. Fenton?
SPERAY REPLIES: He’s talking about salvation, which is a different issue. I’ve already told you that Protestants in good faith may be in the internal fora be in the Church but in the external fora they are to be considered outside of the Church. They don’t have a right to the Christian name even if they are actually Christian in the internal fora. If you read moral theology books you’ll see see this. They all say basically the same thing. Salvation is an internal forum issue where people can die appearing as (external fora) Jews, Muslims, etc. but in the internal fora they are Catholics. It’s called Baptism of Desire and I wrote a whole book on the issue. You should check it out because I bet you would appreciate it.
The issue at hand is that baptized non-Catholics are not Christians in the EXTERNAL FORUM. They don’t have a right to the Christian name. Catholics who internally reject God altogether are considered Catholics or Christians in the external forum but in the internal forum they are non-Catholic apostates and hellbound. Are you starting to understand?
We are talking about the external forum, not the internal forum. God takes care of the internal forum and we judge only the external forum. That why we are not to judge hearts because only God can do so.
God Bless.
If they can be called Christians in conventional language, they can be called Christians in documents of the Magisterium also.
SPERAY REPLIES: Absolutely. No problem. Documents use conventional language. I’ve already told you this. Pope Pius IX did so in Iam Vos Omnes in 1868.
The Holy Office decree was a pre-Vatican II document of the Magisterium that referred to them as Christians.
SPERAY REPLIES: Not a problem.
Either condemn both it and Vatican II as heretical or you can condemn neither. The truth is private persons are not to pass judgment on the Magisterium.
SPERAY REPLIES: Vatican 2 and JP2 said they have a right to the Christian name. NO THEY DON’T! It’s true that private persons aren’t to pass judgment on the magisterium but yours ain’t it because it’s heretical.
When a Pope is Universally Accepted, we know he is not a heretic. Fr. Francis Connell explains this in the AER in 1965. So SVism cannot be correct on VII.
SPERAY REPLIES: I’ve done 2 articles on this. See https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2019/02/21/the-universal-acceptance-argument-revisited/ Universal acceptance is doesn’t make a man a pope. History has shown antipopes that were universally accepted. What you have is an opinion anyway. Sedevacantism is correct because there’s no pope and Bergoglio is a manifest heretic. THAT’S THE FACT WHETHER YOU LIKE AND ACCEPT THAT FACT OR NOT.
St. Robert is speaking about a formal heretic, one who remained manifestly obstinate after two warnings as the Doctor explains.
SPERAY REPLIES: WRONG! He did not say a pope is to be warned and he told us that Liberius wasn’t a heretic yet appeared as one and because of the appearance of heresy, the office can be taken away from him.
Separated Christians in material heresy are not formal heretics.
SPERAY REPLIES: And Van Noort said “material heretics are likewise excluded from membership [Church].” The issue with Vatican 2 is that all Baptized have a right to be called Christian and are members of the Church.
Pope Leo XIII is likewise speaking of one who cuts himself of from the body by the sin of heresy, just like Pope Pius XII did. Formal heresy is a sin. Material heresy is not a sin.
SPERAY REPLIES: A person who commits the material sin of heresy is not a material heretic. Catholics who do so are not material heretics. In the external fora, only Catholics are Christians as Pope Leo XIII actually said.
Regarding Catholics who are secret apostates, some claim they are still members of the Church, although of course I agree with you they would be lost. But that’s not the issue here. The question is, “Can a baptized Christian, separated from the Church in good faith, and only in material heresy, be called a Christian”. Yes, he can, because he never sinned formally to become a heretic.
SPERAY REPLIES: The issue is having a right to the name. You may call formal heretics Christian in conventional language. I call Bergoglio “Pope Francis” in conventional language but he is not the pope. You don’t know who and which non-Catholics are guilty of obstinancy. You may privately assume this or that may be but they don’t get the right to the name of Christian and that is the issue.
Those stubbornly separated from the Church, through grave sin, are not Christians and cannot attain salvation. They are formal heretics or schismatics.
SPERAY REPLIES: And you don’t know which are stubborn in their hearts. Moral theologians such as Rev. John A. McHugh, OP. and Rev. Charles J. Callan, OP. will tell you that outwardly men can appear stubborn and formally heretical but inwardly they are not actually. The law of the Church will judge such persons as formal heretics but in the internal forum they are Christian. Neither we or the Church judges the heart. Only God. In the external forum we must judge non-Catholics as outside of the Church and non-Christian even if in the internal forum it’s vice-versa.
So separated Christians can attain salvation but cannot be called Christians? LOL.
SPERAY REPLIES: They don’t have a right to the name. That’s the issue.
To be saved, one must believe explicitly in Christ and the Trinity. If one is saved, one is a Christian at least in the hour of death, as Fr. Mueller teaches.
SPERAY REPLIES: Even Jews and Muslims can attain that at the moment of death. See here: https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2013/07/31/a-true-story-concerning-baptism-of-desire-and-st-john-vianney/
I agree with Baptism of Desire, and what you wrote against the Dimonds et all.
SPERAY REPLIES: Good, then you know that it’s an internal forum issue.
But I also believe explicit faith in Christ is needed for salvation as Fenton said.
SPERAY REPLIES: And that can be attained in the internal forum only as the Fr. Cohen story tells us.
But here the issue is, if they can be saved as such, they are surely Christians.
SPERAY REPLIES: Not in the external forum since even Jews and Muslims can attain explicit faith in Christ at death in the internal forum.
Here’s the Catechism: CCC: “Wounds to unity
817 In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church – for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.”269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body – here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 – do not occur without human sin:
SPERAY REPLIES: NOTICE the CCC implying that heresy, apostasy, and schism doesn’t separate you from the Church. The Church is divided. John Paul 2 and Vat2 tells us this many times that Protestants and Eastern Orthodox ARE PART OF THE CHURCH OF CHRIST. THAT’S A HERESY!!!
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271
SPERAY REPLIES: NOT WITHIN THE CHURCH. Heresy severs one from the Church of Christ by it’s very nature. But according to Vat2 and JP2, the Church is divided in heresy and schism. IT’S TOTAL NONSENSE!
818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”272
SPERAY REPLIES: BAM, there it is. Justification is an internal forum issue although we know that infants are more assured. They may in the internal forum be in the Lord, but we are not to assume it in the external forum as a right to the name.
They are justified through Trinitarian Baptism and Trinitarian Faith. So they can be called Christians and accepted as brethren, albeit separated brethren.
SPERAY REPLIES: NOT BY RIGHT because you don’t know who or which persons are truly justified. Only exception would be those without reason such as infants.
Why don’t you condemn Fr. Damen, a great Catholic Missionary, also for teaching “heresy” by believing and teaching us to call them separated brethren?
SPERAY REPLIES: He didn’t teach heresy like Vatican 2 and John Paul 2. So I’m going to ask you a question. Do you agree with Vat2 and JP2 that the Eastern Orthodox and Lutheran religions are part of the Church of Christ? We see in the Joint Declaration with the Lutherans, 1999, approved by John Paul 2, “44. We give thanks to the Lord for this decisive step forward on the way to overcoming the division of the church. We ask the Holy Spirit to lead us further toward that visible unity which is Christ’s will.” Notice that it’s saying the Church of Christ is divided into Catholic and Lutheran communities.
The Balamand statement also approved by JP2 stated, “It is in this perspective that the Catholic Churches and the Orthodox Churches recognize each other as Sister Churches, responsible together for maintaining the Church of God.” Again, it’s saying the Church of Christ is divided this time into Catholic and Orthodox communities.
We also have Paul VI and Benedict referring to Eastern Orthodox Patriarch as “pastors in the Church of Christ” who “guide the Church” etc.
So do you agree that the Church of Christ is composed of false religions?
LOL. So is the Baltimore Catechism also heretical? Better extend that Papal Vacancy to 100+ years including Pope Leo XIII, who approved it!
“Q. 512. How are such persons said to belong to the Church?
A. Such persons are said to belong to the “soul of the church”; that is, they are really members of the Church without knowing it. Those who share in its Sacraments and worship are said to belong to the body or visible part of the Church.” https://www.ourladyswarriors.org/faith/bc3-11.htm
SPERAY REPLIES: Soul of the Church is reference to the internal forum. I’ve been telling you this. This proves my point, not yours. They are not in the Body of the Church, external forum, but only the soul of the Church.
Non-Catholic Christians are certainly WITHIN the Church. Here’s a Syllogism proving it: (1) Non-Catholic Christians can be saved (since they already believe explicitly in Christ) if they are in good faith. (2) BUT no one can be saved EXCEPT WITHIN the Church. (3) Therefore, NCCs are within the Church.
SPERAY REPLIES: The issue is internal vs external forums. You keep arguing the internal forum, when I’ve written books saying the same thing. They are not in the Body of the Church and that is the problem. If fact, your references are discrediting your Vat2 religion and proving mine.
The Catechism taught they belong at least to the Soul of the Church, i.e. “they are members of the Church without knowing it”. Do you agree with the BC?
SPERAY REPLIES: I’m the one telling you this. They are not in the Body of the Church. I cover all this in my books. Do you agree with the BC that they are NOT IN THE BODY OF THE CHURCH? You see that’s what your vat2 religion teaches.
Yes, I agree about Baptism of Desire, and Fr. Herman Cohen’s Mother, Mrs. Rosalie Cohen, is a great story! Thanks for sharing it. It shows we must not judge anyone’s internal forum, but pray for all our non-Catholic and non-Christian friends, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists etc, that they may die in the Grace of Christ and be saved. This is an important doctrinal development.
SPERAY REPLIES: That’s what I’ve been saying. You don’t judge internal forum as if they all are members of the Body of the Church, which is the external forum. This is all supports my position, not yours, unless you disagree with your religion on this point.
One of my sede Catholic friends is having a crisis of conscience because of BOD. He says that “If Baptism of Desire is true, there is no error in Vatican II”.
SPERAY REPLIES: Then he understands neither. BOD is a doctrine of the Church and must be accepted but Vat2 goes much further by saying the Body of the Church is divided, which is heretical.
It is disputed whether non-Catholic Christians can belong even to the Body of the Church. Some say they can, some that they cannot. It is irrelevant.
SPERAY REPLIES: It’s is not disputed. It’s even part of canon law. They don’t belong to the Body of the Church.
Theologians don’t judge the Magisterium, but the Magisterium judges between theological opinions. Thus the Magisterium has the right to favor one opinion.
SPERAY REPLIES: The magisterium can’t contradict church doctrine, which the Vat2 religion does. The sin of heresy severs one from the Body of the Church by it’s nature.
Yet, I am not sure even Vatican II and the CCC say that separated Christians belong to the Body of the Church. The terms used are generally “Christians who have not preserved the Catholic Faith in its entirety” (Evangelicals), or “Christians who have not preserved full Communion with the Successor of Peter” (Orthodox Christians). Pre-Vatican II books refer to the vast majority of Orthodox Christians in particular of being almost undoubtedly in good faith.
SPERAY REPLIES: Vat2 and CCC do say it. They deny the oneness of faith in the Church of Christ.
Every effort must of course be made to bring them home to Rome: I wrote an article proving Filioque from Scripture and Tradition for the Orthodox, in it I called them Orthodox. Do you disagree with it? https://onepeterfive.com/filioque-separated-east/ I was firm on Photius, but mild on Christians born in error.
SPERAY REPLIES: I’ve already written extensively on the eastern orthodox and I already believe the filioque is scriptural. Have you read what popes have said about the Eastern Orthodox not being part of the Church?
I think that is the mind of the Church in general, as best as I can understand Her.
Re: Christians. So the Church has spiritual members who are not Christians? LOL What Church is that? Not the Catholic Church. BC says they are spiritual members. This is a non-infallible area of Church teaching that can be clarified.
SPERAY REPLIES: Pope Pius X taught in his catcheism: 29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.
Notice the word implicit desire, which includes non-Christians.
Re: Infants. Right. Another point that makes the consideration even stronger. Every baptized infant is a member of the Catholic Church. So how does he later, unless he sins mortally by formal heresy (and therefore loses the internal virtue of supernatural faith, which separates him from the Church), become a non-member? It seems more likely he still belongs to the Body in an imperfect way.
SPERAY REPLIES: How about you tell me how he ceases to be a member of the Catholic Church when he reaches the age of reason? At what point? How? You see, we have laws and logic. We don’t recognize Eastern Orthodox as part of the Body of the Church because it would necessarily make for a divided Body and it would lose the mark of oneness which is the visible mark of the Church. Your Vatican 2 popes actually say the VISIBLE church is divided. That’s heresy!!!!
At any rate, it is not defined. Different opinions are legitimate. But he is surely within Her. As a matter of mutable discipline, we presume good faith today.
SPERAY REPLIES: No, not where the Body of the Church is concerned. The issue is the Body of the Church, not the soul. I’ve only told you this a dozen times now in each comment and you keep bringing up the internal forum. That is not the issue. THE ISSUE IS THE EXTERNAL FORUM AND VISIIBLE ONENESS OF THE CHURCH AS THE CHURCH TEACHES IT.
Lastly, St. Augustine, in the work quoted on the other thread, was speaking of a non-Catholic, not a Catholic. That is clear from reading the full work, “27. You see and know all these things, and you groan over them; and yet God at the same time sees that nothing compels you to remain in such fatal and impious schism” https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102043.htm
SPERAY REPLIES: St. Augustine is clear about the internal and external forums. You have confused the issue.
The term “material heretic” is not free from all objection. If both matter and form are not present, the composite is not present. Thus both the matter of error in the intellect and pertinacity in the will are required for heresy to be truly present.
SPERAY REPLIES: We’re talking about the external forum, not the internal forum. PLEASE DON’T KEEP REPLYING ABOUT THE INTERNAL FORUM.
It would be interesting to study when the term “material heretic” was invented. It would probably be after the early Fathers and the medieval Doctors. It is better to refer to such a person as a Christian in error rather than a “material heretic”.
SPERAY REPLIES: No. We already refer to Catholics in error as Catholics in error and baptized non-Catholics as material heretics. There’s a distinction that some theologians have made.
So Van Noort says it is another opinion, though less common, that “material heretics” can belong to the Body of the Church. I think that may be the case.
SPERAY REPLIES: Not exactly. You’ll also find Van Noort saying its the common opinion that canonizations are infallible as if some theologians say no they are not. An argument from such theologians are easily disproved. They are wrong. Baptized non-Catholics can’t possibly be members of the Body of the Church less you destroy the visibility of oneness as the Church defines. Besides, we already have Pope Leo XIII teach that Christians are Catholics. PERIOD. End of story. You argue against him at this point.
Only Catholics are full members of the Church. The Church remains undivided among us. Separated Christians belong to Her imperfectly. Thus, on the human side, they have caused some divisions. They are like Wounds in Christ’s Body.
SPERAY REPLIES: Speaking from the Body, that would be heresy. Is that what you mean, that the Body of the Church is not one but divided?
That should answer your question. Can you answer mine on the Catechism?
SPERAY REPLIES: You have not answered my question and I have answered yours before you asked it. I already told you the very principle from the Baltimore Catechism. Do you agree with Vat2 and JP2 that the Eastern Orthodox and Lutheran religions are part of the Church of Christ? We see in the Joint Declaration with the Lutherans, 1999, approved by John Paul 2, “44. We give thanks to the Lord for this decisive step forward on the way to overcoming the division of the church. We ask the Holy Spirit to lead us further toward that visible unity which is Christ’s will.” Notice that it’s saying the Church of Christ is divided into Catholic and Lutheran communities.
The Balamand statement also approved by JP2 stated, “It is in this perspective that the Catholic Churches and the Orthodox Churches recognize each other as Sister Churches, responsible together for maintaining the Church of God.” Again, it’s saying the Church of Christ is divided this time into Catholic and Orthodox communities.
We also have Paul VI and Benedict referring to Eastern Orthodox Patriarch as “pastors in the Church of Christ” who “guide the Church” etc.
So do you agree that the Church of Christ is composed of false religions?
We’ll discuss the other matters pertaining to the Pope-heretic question on “the divided religion” thread. I agree non-infallible Magisterium cannot be heretical.
God Bless.
Re: Not just “Soul of the Church”. It also says, “they are really members of the Church without knowing it”. SEE MEMBERS. It’s specifically talking about non-Catholic Christians here, and it clearly says they are “MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH”. It endorses what Msgr. Van Noort calls the “less common opinion”.
SPERAY REPLIES: These members of the Soul of the Church are not members of the Body of the Church. That’s why they use this language. We’re talking about Body (external forum). It seems that you can’t understand this stuff after I’ve gone over with you many times now. Now, you’re wasting my time.
I believe Dr. Ott says the same. It’s an opinion only. Now, here is Pope Pius XII: “if the Supreme Pontiffs in their official documents purposely pass judgment on a matter up to that time under dispute, it is obvious that that matter, according to the mind and will of the Pontiffs, cannot be any longer considered a question open to discussion among theologians.” (Humani Generis). That means that, (1) if Vatican II had really passed judgment that separated Christians are members of the Church, then theologians are supposed to accept that. Not (2) to claim the Magisterium is not the Magisterium because it disagreed with your opinion.
SPERAY REPLIES: It disagreed with Catholic teaching that can’t be altered. It’s not an opinion. It’s a dogma that the oneness of the Church is in faith and it’s a visible mark. You’re arguing with your false religion that the Body of the Church is divided, it’s visible unity is actually divided in faith.
To take an analogy, I’m a Thomist on the Thomist-Molinist Grace Controversy. Thomists always defer to and obey the Magisterium. Some Thomists claimed Molinism is heretical. But the Magisterium told them not to. Thereafter, Thomists never claim Molinism is heretical, but only argue against the opinion. Now, I firmly believe in Thomism (intrinsically efficacious grace etc) based on my reading of Scripture and Tradition. But if the Church in future should decide otherwise, what should I do? According to you, I should say, the Church is not the Church. In reality, I will accept it, though I don’t believe that will ever happen.
SPERAY REPLIES: You don’t understand what you’re talking about. We’ve been talking about the visible unity of the church, it’s mark of oneness, then you argue about internal forum, soul of the church, and say Vat2 can change opinion. You’re all over the place.
You cannot cite OPINIONS against the Magisterium, even if widely held.
SPERAY REPLIES: But that’s what you’re doing, not me. Your “magisterium” is citing it’s opinion against dogma.
That’s what you are doing and thus you place theologians above the Magisterium – word-for-word contradicting what Pope Pius XII, your last Pope, wrote above.
SPERAY REPLIES: NOPE! THAT’S WHAT YOU’RE DOING. Dogmas don’t change. The dogma is the Body of the Church is one in faith, visibily one. Your Vat2 religion rejects that point.
Pope Pius XII also wrote: “This deposit of faith our Divine Redeemer has given for authentic interpretation not to each of the faithful, not even to theologians, but only to the Teaching Authority of the Church.”
SPERAY REPLIES: Absolutely, which it did a long time ago, which your religion now rejects.
Dimondite/Feeneyite dogmatic SVs especially err here, thinking they are the Magisterium (TA) of the Church.
SPERAY REPLIES: Nope! You believe in a fake magisterium that changes dogma and then argue that dogma is an opinion that can be changed. You’re all over the place.
As for implicit desire, many theologians interpret that to mean “with explicit faith”. St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus had taught implicit desire but explicit faith.
SPERAY REPLIES: Nope. Implicit desire here means you don’t have explicit faith or else you would have explicit desire for baptism.
Re: St. Augustine. St. Augustine clearly says “such are not to be accounted heretics”. He’s speaking of a non-Catholic. Answer my question, if you know: “When was the term “material heretic” invented?” You’re dogmatizing an opinion. No Theologian places his theological writings above the Magisterium.
SPERAY REPLIES: I’VE ANSWERED ALL YOUR QUESTIONS BUT YOU DON’T ANSWER MINE. You still didn’t answer my last question, which I’ve now asked 3 times. Material heretic is not an issue. What’s the issue is if the Church is one in faith visibly. The Church and I say yes, and your Vat2 religion say no.
I’m open to the possibility, the so-called “less common opinion” (Dr. Ott also describes it such) that non-Catholic Christians, especially Orthodox Christians are partial, though not complete, members of the Church of Christ, especially after Pope Paul VI removed the ecclesiastical excommunication of Constantinople.
SPERAY REPLIES: THERE IS NO PARTIAL UNION WITH THE VISIBLE CHURCH. The Church is one or it’s divided. You are argue it’s divided.
Even in Lyons II and Florence, the non-Catholic dignitaries who arrived to debate with the Council Fathers and us Catholics were considered as Christians, although Christians in error. I’ve read about this, but I’ll have to research it more before I get back. There was even inter-communion for a while.
SPERAY REPLIES: You don’t understand what you read as is evident from your comments.
More Later. God Bless. SVism cannot be the Truth, Steven. It has no Magisterium. It is not a Catholic Church. It is the latest Prot/Old Catholic Sect.
SPERAY REPLIES: Your Vat2 religion can’t be the Truth. It has no Catholic magisterium. It is not the Catholic Church. It is the latest Protestant sect.
Satan confuses issues and leads souls to misconstrue facts and the faith. Jesus Maria is good at complicating issues and twisting fact, so reader, beware. I suspect he is totally immersed in the Novus Ordo as like a new priests being sent out into the world with his new theology and brainwashing. Sorry to be so blunt but there are many out there bent on thinking they are Catholic when they are not.
When you’re arguing against the only real possible claimant to being the Magisterium of the Church (where is it among sedes), you better have at least a clear contradiction to actual dogma.
I’ve asked sedes to present a contradiction of some clear dogma like (1) Christ’s Divinity. The Church still teaches it. (2) Christ’s Real Presence in the Eucharist. The Church still teaches it. (3) Christ’s Kingship. The Church still teaches it, even in the new CCC. (4) The Immaculate Conception. The Church still teaches it. (5) Our Lady’s Perpetual Virginity. The Church still teaches. (6) Purgatory, Filioque etc. The Church still teaches all of them. even (7) EENS. It even explains it much better than many sedevacantists, in CCC 161, and 846-848. Of course, it also explains the well known theological concepts of good faith, material heresy, invincible ignorance, and the doctrines of Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood, but it also clearly teaches EENS.
SPERAY REPLIES: I’ve shown how Vatican 2 taught the Church is visibly divided when the dogma is that it’s one in faith. You can’t refute it. Also, John Paul II rejected the Christ’s literal descent into hell, Vat2 taught man has a God-given civil right to profess public heresy, etc. Your religion is not Catholic. It’s as simple as that and easily proven.
Can anyone dispute that? Does anyone even do so? Only the Dimonds do.
SPERAY REPLIES: The problem is that the Vatican 2 popes don’t believe the Protestants have to convert at all. They are saved in their false religions because they believe their false religions make up the Church of Christ.
Steven, there are no “members of the Soul of the Church”. A Soul does not have members. Only a Body does. That’s why if they are members in some sense, they belong to the Body in some sense. Maybe they only belong “in voto” not “in re”, but those expressions of theologians did not finally enter the Magisterium.
SPERAY REPLIES: Your own argument refutes your position. The Catechism that you quoted didn’t say they were members of the body but united to the soul as do other catechisms such as Pope St. Pius X’s. They were clear that they are not members of the Body of the Church.
We say, other Christians in good faith are in partial invisible communion with the Church, and Catholics are in full visible Communion with the Successor of Peter.
SPERAY REPLIES: That’s not a problem but that’s not what your popes are saying. They are saying the Church is visibly divided. The mark of oneness is a visible mark. That’s why I asked you the question about the Balamand Statement and the Joint Declaration with the Lutherans but you never answered the question because you can’t do so.
Prove either of these expressions wrong, from traditional Magisterial sources.
If Christians who believe in the Trinity can be validly baptized and even saved, then they certainly are within the Church. Not in full communion, but surely within. You will say we cannot presume it, but St. Augustine did presume it.
SPERAY REPLIES: WITHIN THE SOUL, NOT BODY. The issues you can’t seem to get through your head. THE DOGMA is the Body is one in faith, MARK OF THE CHURCH, visible mark, external forum. I don’t know how many times or ways to say it for you to understand.
Re: Visible Mark of Unity. The Church still has that Visible Mark, and it is part of what, with the aid of God’s Grace, that leads to millions of conversions to Her every year, including from the Protestant sects.
SPERAY REPLIES: VATICAN 2 IS SAYING THE CHURCH OF CHRIST HAS THE MARK AND THEN SAYS IT’S DIVIDED. THAT’S THE PROTESTANT UNDERSTANDING.
Do you think they don’t see Her Visible Unity to convert?
SPERAY REPLIES: YOUR VATICAN 2 POPES SAY THEY DON’T HAVE TO CONVERT.
Of course they do, and that’s why they convert.
SPERAY REPLIES: Convert to what, another Protestant sect you call the catholic church. It’s preaches Protestantism when it comes to the nature of the church.
How many conversions does the sede sect receive every year?
SPERAY REPLIES: That’s irrelevant. Anyway, the Church gets smaller in the end, not bigger. Interestingly, we are growing by leaps and bounds because ignorant Catholics are waking up.
Is there unity between the CMRI and the SSPV, which cast aspersions on each others orders? Many Protestants give Catholic Unity as N.1 reason for their conversion.
SPERAY REPLIES: We are unified in faith and have differences where the Church hasn’t yet settled the issues. Your religion is divided over dogmas. You don’t even agree with your pope. Most people in your religion don’t even believe in the Real Presence of the Eucharist.
There are not 10,000 denominations within the Catholic Church as there are within the Protestant sects. Nor like the divisions among the sede groups.
SPERAY REPLIES: Your religion is just as divided as having 10,000 denominations or more. That’s the point. Your Vatican 2 popes even recognize Protestant religions as part of the Church as I showed you in the Balamand statement and Joint Declaration.
We have 1.35 billion Catholics with many conversions. How many sedes are there by contrast, and how many conversions have you received in 63 years?
SPERAY REPLIES: If size and conversions is the measuring stick, then you better give up on Jesus, because most people in the world reject Christ and aren’t baptized and they are growing bigger and faster than your religion. The Catholics that are waking up realize that your religion is counterfeit. But we expect this as Scripture tells us about the great falling away. You’re part of it. Truth, which is Christ is the foundation, not size.
There will always be differences of opinions on minor points. There have been pre-Vatican II, and there are now. That’s not what Unity in Faith is all about.
SPERAY REPLIES: You are divided over dogmas. Very few of you actually believe in Catholicism. Those that do are ignorant of the fact that they are practicing in a counterfeit religion. Those are the ones I’m reaching out to. You once told me that your popes are wrong but well intentioned, which means you don’t agree with your popes on doctrinal issues.
Unity is broken by the crime and sin of schism. Schism comes about through lack of love for neighbor, and the Church’s Unity. Schism causes some Catholics to go off and start their own chapel somewhere, without jurisdiction and mission.
SPERAY REPLIES: Like your religion. It left the Catholic Faith and started it’s own religion usurping the Catholic name. You are part of it. Your pope and bishops were not sent.
We have the Worldwide Episcopate, that confirms the Church’s Universality, another of Her Marks closely related to Oneness.
SPERAY REPLIES: Not exactly. The Roman Catechism lays it out and your religion doesn’t even claim it. Third Mark: “Catholic”
The Roman Catechism:
“She is also called universal, because all who desire eternal salvation must cling to and embrace her, like those who entered the ark to escape perishing in the flood. This (note of catholicity), therefore, is to be taught as a most reliable criterion, by which to distinguish the true from a false Church.”
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino: “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives.”
Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum # 9: “The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative magisterium…But he who dissents even in one point from divinely revealed truth absolutely rejects all faith, since he thereby refuses to honor God as the supreme truth and the formal motive of faith… The Church alone offers to the human race that religion – that state of absolute perfection – which He wished, as it were, to be incorporated in it. And it alone supplies those means of salvation which accord with the ordinary counsels of Providence.”
To the contrary, The Catechism of the Catholic Church of John Paul II states:
“In her subsists the fullness of Christ’s body united with its head; this implies that she receives from him ‘the fullness of the means of salvation.’”
The catechism makes special reference to UR3 of Vatican 2 supporting the above statement:
“It follows that these separated churches and communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation whose efficacy comes from that fullness of grace and truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church.”
Of course, the Vatican 2 religion advocates that clinging and embracing its religion is best because it has the fullness of means, but it doesn’t teach that its membership is a necessary precept because non-Catholic churches have a means to salvation, just not the fullness thereof.
Therefore, the church of Vatican 2 lacks the mark of catholicity.
Does SVism have Universality? In Etsi Multa, Pope Bl. Pius IX said OCs don’t have it, and H.H. quoted Sacred Scripture to say the Church will be in all nations until the end.
SPERAY REPLIES: See https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2019/01/22/the-bizarre-argument-using-etsi-multa/
Do you have it, Steven? If so, where is it? Are there sedes in all 200+ nations?
SPERAY REPLIES: SEE http://www.ecclesia.luxvera.org/Directory-World.html
Don’t you see the importance of reconciling the Orthodox? We desire that the Church’s Universality be even more manifest than it is, in order that even more non-Christian souls of good will may be converted to the Catholic Church.
SPERAY REPLIES: You are already one with them. You aren’t reading your popes. That’s what they are arguing. Not oneness of faith but oneness in another way.
That’s how important Unity and Universality (Catholicity) really is. Unfortunately, the sin of schism, like SVism, weakens on the human side the Church’s Unity.
SPERAY REPLIES: We are not unified with errors like your religion is and we will never be united to the errors of your religion.
You may disagree, but this is a legitimate way of formulating the problem. Do you follow the Divine Mercy devotion, which had some Church approvals pre-Vatican II? In it, Jesus says, heresy and schism are like Wounds in His Body.
SPERAY REPLIES: The Divine Mercy devotion was condemned. See https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f072_DivMercy.htm
That group is united to you and your religion.
I will pray for you, Steven, and for your family. Take care and God bless you.
Who said Protestants don’t have to convert? Have you read the Catechism at least once, Steven? You have to know what you’re arguing against, yes?
SPERAY REPLIES: Have you not be reading your popes and watched them practice? They have said it and practiced it with Protestants such as with the late Protestant Roger Schultz. The Balamand Statement which you never answered because you can’t also states,
30. To pave the way for future relations between the two Churches, passing beyond the outdated ecclesiology of return to the Catholic Church connected with the problem which is the object of this document…
-When addressing Protestants at World Youth Day, on August 19, 2005, Benedict stated:
“And we now ask: What does it mean to restore the unity of all Christians?… this unity does not mean what could be called ecumenism of the return: that is, to deny and to reject one’s own faith history. Absolutely not!” (L’Osservatore Romano, August 24, 2005, p. 8)
For us, it is a work of mercy to pray for and call all our erring brethren home, including sedes. We still do it. Dr. Taylor Marshall is one e.g. of a former Prot.
SPERAY REPLIES: What do you mean by brethren? If Protestants and Easten Orthos are IN CHRIST, then what’s the problem? They are IN CHRIST. But true Catholics don’t recognize non-Catholics as IN CHRIST. I don’t consider you a brother in Christ because you’re not IN CHRIST, as far as we are concerned. You defend the heresy of a visibly divided Church and call it Catholic doctrine.
Here’s the Catechism, CCC 846: “Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the [Second Vatican] Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm
Notice how it clearly says those who know the Church to be the true Church must enter Her to be saved.
SPERAY REPLIES: You could substitute Baptist Church in there and it would still be true. Think about it. What if you truly believed the Baptist religion is the only true religion to be saved (even though it’s an erroneous belief) and you choose not to belong to it, would you be in trouble with God for going against what you think is true about Him?
This is also found in the Baltimore Catechism.
SPERAY REPLIES: Nope! It’s worded differently and works where as the CCC doesn’t work.
Next, take a look at other passages in the Catechism on Christian Unity.
“Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
836 “All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.”320
SPERAY REPLIES: VAt2’s definition is the same as the Protestants. They say the same thing. They also believe this very point. I personally know 3 Protestant ministers that believe actually as your CCC states.
837 “Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who – by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion – are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.'”321
SPERAY REPLIES: THAT’S NOT SAYING WHAT YOU’RE SAYING. It just means that Catholics aren’t saved unless they have charity. Duh. Even Protestants believe that.
838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.”322 Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”324
SPERAY REPLIES: AND? Both sides acknowlege that but they both also recognize each other as part of the Chruch of Christ, Balamand statement. HERESY!!!!!!! AND YOU BELIEVE THE HERERSY!!!!!
So: (1) All men are called to belong to the Catholic Unity of the People of God. That includes Protestants and hence the claim is not true.
SPERAY REPLIES: MEANS NOTHING IF THEY ARE ALREADY IN CHRIST AND HAVE SALVATION AS THE VAT2 POPES SAY.
(2) Catholics alone are fully incorporated into the Society of the Church.
SPERAY REPLIES: CATHOLICS ALONE ARE INCORPORATED. YOUR RELIGION IMPLIES THAT NON-CATHOLICS ARE PARTIALLY INCORPORATED WHICH IS HERESY.
(3) Someone who does not persevere in charity, even in the body of the Church, is not saved. Orthodox.
SPERAY REPLIES: IT’S CALLED MORTAL SIN. DUH. YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU’RE READING.
(4) The Church is joined to other Christians by many bonds, including Baptism.
SPERAY REPLIES: NOT THE BODY OF THE CHURCH. THIS IS HERESY!
Since infant Baptism is always efficacious, all good-willed Christians are very close to Her.
SPERAY REPLIES: IF INFANTS, THEY ARE CATHOLIC. GOOD-WILLED PROTESTANTS AND EASTERN ORTHODOX MAY BE SAVED BUT NOT IN THE BODY OF THE CHURCH BUT ONLY IN THE SOUL OF THE CHURCH.
(5) Orthodox have in addition a valid Priesthood, and almost all pre-Vatican II Theologians consider almost all Orthodox to be in good faith.
SPERAY REPLIES: IRRELEVANT AS FAR AS THE BODY OF THE CHURCH IS CONCERNED. THEY ARE NOT IN THE BODY OF THE CHURCH. HAVE YOU READ WHAT THE POPES HAVE SAID ABOUT THE EASTERN ORTHODOX?
It’s very clear, Steven. This is an orthodox way of formulating the problem.
SPERAY REPLIES: THE PROBLEM IS THAT YOU’RE PROMOTING HERESY AND HERETICAL POPES. VERY SIMPLE.
Btw, you are allowed to have slight reservations in non-infallible documents, according to the post-V2 Magisterium itself, provided you express them respectfully to the Magisterial authorities themselves, and within certain limits.
SPERAY REPLIES: WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
At least 95% of Vatican II and 98% of the CCC is unimpeachably orthodox.
SPERAY REPLIES: IT MUST BE 100% ORTHODOX SO THANK YOU FOR PROVING MY POINT.
Here is Wiki on religious submission and Donum Veritatis: “Donum Veritatis also allows that even if, “not habitually mistaken in its prudential judgments…some Magisterial documents might not be free from all deficiencies,” and withholding assent is allowed for a theologian, “who might have serious difficulties, for reasons which appear to him wellfounded, in accepting a non-irreformable magisterial teaching.” In such “even if the doctrine of the faith is not in question, the theologian will not present his own opinions or divergent hypotheses as though they were non-arguable conclusions,” and is to “refrain from giving untimely public expression to them,” and “avoid turning to the mass media,” but with a humble and teachable spirit it is his duty “to make known to the Magisterial authorities the problems raised by the teaching in itself, in the arguments proposed to justify it, or even in the manner in which it is presented,” with “an intense and patient reflection on his part and a readiness, if need be, to revise his own opinions and examine the objections which his colleagues might offer him”, prayerfully trusting “that if the truth really is at stake, it will ultimately prevail.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsequium_religiosum
SPERAY REPLIES: YOU QUOTE WIKI? DON’T YOU KNOW THAT THE MAGISTERIUM CAN’T BE HERETICAL, RIGHT? But I don’t think it matters to you because heresy is orthodox to you if it comes from your pope. You don’t see the obvious. You have yet to answer my question. Your religion teaches in a divide visible church and you believe it. You have a different religion than me and mine is historic Catholicism and yours is modernism.
New Post for the Next Parts.
Next, you said many professing Catholics don’t believe in the Real Presence. But the Magisterium officially teaches it, so they are ignorant or disobedient. It’s not the Church’s fault. Such problems have always existed. The Donatists went off to schism and the Protestants went off to heresy because of similar problems.
SPERAY REPLIES: But they went off and you guys stay in the same church while all professing differently. Your religion does nothing about it but support the heretics such as they do with Biden and Pelosi. They are in communion with your religion and not a single bishop has excommunicated them. Your priests keep giving them communion except for rare exceptions. Your pope knows how Biden is a heretic and says nothing. Your religion is actually divided in faith. Even you are divided with your pope on issues already settled by the Church. Remember? You said they err in good faith. HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY ARE IN GOOD FAITH? HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY ERR? ARE YOU MORE KNOWLEDGABLE OF THE CATHOLIC RELIGION THAN YOUR POPES?
The Magisterium contradicts your personal interpretation of Christ’s Word that the Gospel will be preached in all nations around the end times:
SPERAY REPLIES: You are now lying about us and we have been clear. The Gospel has been preached in all nations. We acknowlege that.
““The Church cries to her Spouse: Why do certain men withdrawing from me murmur against me? Why do these lost men claim that I have perished? Announce to me the length of my days, how long I will be in this world? Tell me on account of those who say: it was and is no longer; on account of those who say: the scriptures have been fulfilled, all nations have believed, but the Church has apostatized and perished from all nations. And He announced and the voice was not vain. What did He announce? ‘Behold I am with you all days even to the consummation of the world.’ Moved by your voices and your false opinions, it asked of God that He announce to it the length of its days and it found that God said ‘Behold I am with you all days even to the consummation of the world.’ Here you will say: He spoke about us; we are as we will be until the end of the world. Christ Himself is asked; He says ‘and this Gospel will be preached in the whole world, in testimony to all nations, and then will come the end.’ Therefore the Church will be among all nations until the end of the world.” https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9etsimu.htm
SPERAY REPLIES: I’VE ALREADY ANSWERED THIS. I AGREE WITH THE POPE. THE CHURCH IS EVERYWHERE BUT NOT AS YOUR RELIGION.
Notice how the Pope clearlys says the Church will be in all nations until the end.
SPERAY REPLIES: YES, ABSOLUTELY! I AGREE. IT STILL IS AND I GAVE YOU LIST OF CHURCHES IN MANY OF THEM.
According to your own source, your religion is not in all nations.
SPERAY REPLIES: My source gave a list of churches in all 6 continents and the countries you’ll find them. It’s not an exhausted list but it doesn’t have to be. Some Catholics don’t have churches since your religion stole them from us like the Arians did in their day, but the Catholics are there I’m sure. Just like Japan, who went 300 years without pastors but the Church still existed there and the Church didn’t know it for many, many years. We are everywhere. Some of us are practicing erroneously in your religion, the SSPX, etc.
Clearly, therefore, your religion is not the Universal Church. That’s a Q.E.D.
SPERAY REPLIES: Was the Church in every nation in the first century? YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT UNIVERSAL MEANS. THE ROMAN CATECHISM TELLS US AND YOUR RELIGION ACTUALLY DENIES IT. https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2020/10/27/the-catholic-bottom-line-part-vii/
From: https://catholicherald.co.uk/catholicisms-incredible-growth-story/
And there are abundant Baptism, Conversions, Vocations and doctrinal orthodox in Africa. Cardinal Sarah, an African traditionalist, is just one example.
SPERAY REPLIES: HE’S NOT A TRADITIONLIST YET, BUT WE ARE PRAYING FOR HIM.
“If current trends continue, as they show every sign of doing, then by the 2040s there will be some 460 million African Catholics. Incredibly, that number would be greater than the total world population of Catholics as it stood in 1950.”
Yes I know in North America and Western Europe, it is the reverse. That’s unfortunate, and every effort must be made to bring people back to the Church.
But going off into a sect defeats that purpose. No sects, but Catholic Evangelism, is the solution. After Protestantism, the Church grew worldwide, and made up for Her losses in the European Continent, as historians know.
SPERAY REPLIES: YOU ARE THE SECT. WE ARE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. YOUR POPES HAVE CONDEMNED PROSELYTIZING. SEE ALL THE ARTICLE ADDRESSING THAT FACT FROM MY FRIEND OVER AS NOVUS ORDO WATCH. https://novusordowatch.org/?s=PROSELYTIZE
Here’s the Catechism of St. Anthony Mary Claret on Universality: “The Church is Universal…
The third character or sign of the Church is to be Catholic – which is to say, Universal – because the prophets already had announced that She must extend Herself throughout all the land.
SPERAY REPLIES: Notice that is a mission and exists in mission. It doesn’t mean that must be in every nation as you said to be universal.
She is Catholic with respect to time since, having begun in the time of Jesus Christ and with Him, She will last until the end of time, as He Himself promised, and will continue in heaven for all eternity. For this reason no heretical sect can glory in being the true Church. None of them began with Jesus Christ, but came very much later. It is always possible to demonstrate of each one of them the age in which it began by that age in which lived the heresiarch who gave it his name. Likewise, none of them will last to the end of the world. Either they soon die after birth or they change in such a manner that, at the most, they preserve only their original name.
She is Catholic also with respect to places, or to Her reach and diffusion throughout all the world, clasping to Her breast all groups of people without distinction of nations, classes, ages, or sexes. In all times, in all countries, and in all groups of people where She is found, She has held, and will continue to hold, one and the same Faith, one and the same doctrine or morality, and one and the same form of government under the Roman Pontiff. And Her members, wherever they are found, will always be united by the same beliefs, by the same hope, and by charity, being alive by grace. Thus, She embraces all those who are to be saved. For She is another ark of Noah. Outside of the ark everyone drowned in the flood; and so also will everyone drown or be damned who does not choose to enter into this mystical ark, the Church of Jesus Christ. “Who does not have the Church for a mother,” says Saint Cyprian, “cannot have God for a father.” http://catholicvox.blogspot.com/2009/03/eens-saint-anthony-mary-claret-from.html
SPERAY REPLIES: I AGREE WITH THE SAINT. YOU HAVE A COUNTERFEIT CHURCH. YOUR POPE IS AN ANTICHRIST.
Lastly, Divine Mercy Devotion had pre-Vatican II approvals: “Before her death Kowalska predicted that “there will be a war, a terrible, terrible war” and asked the nuns to pray for Poland. In 1939, a year after Kowalska’s death, Romuald Jałbrzykowski noticed that her predictions about the war had taken place and allowed public access to the Divine Mercy image, which resulted in large crowds that led to the spread of the Divine Mercy devotion.[31] The devotion became a source of strength and inspiration for many people in Poland. By 1941, the devotion had reached the United States, and millions of copies of Divine Mercy prayer cards had been printed and distributed worldwide.[29]
[… snip. see the Wiki link]By 1951, 13 years after Kowalska’s death, there were 150 Divine Mercy centres in Poland.[31][33]
SPERAY REPLIES: EVEN DEMONS CAN SEE WHERE THE FUTURE WAS HEADING SINCE THEY WERE IN CHARGE OF IT. AND YOUR POINT?
On 24 June 1956, Pope Pius XII blessed an Image of the Divine Mercy in Rome, the only one blessed by a Pope before the Second Vatican Council.[34] In 1955, under Pope Pius XII, the Bishop of Gorzów founded a religious order, the Congregation of the Most Holy Lord Jesus Christ, Merciful Redeemer, to spread devotion to the Divine Mercy.[35] Under both Pope Pius XI and Pope Pius XII, writings on devotion to the Divine Mercy were given imprimaturs by many bishops, making it an approved devotion.[36] Cardinals Adam Stefan Sapieha and August Hlond were among those who gave their approval.[37][38] During the papacy of Pope Pius XII, Vatican Radio broadcast several times about the Divine Mercy.[39] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faustina_Kowalska
There was a translation issue in the late 50s, corrected in the late 70s. Such has happened before, with other similar devotions and private revelations.
SPERAY REPLIES: IT WAS PLACED ON THE INDEX November 19, 1958: Plenary Meeting of the Divine Office condemnation of Sr. Faustina from the Holy Office in 1959
THE 1959 reiteration of the condemnation
The supernatural nature of the revelations made to Sr. Faustina is not evident.
No feast of Divine Mercy is to be instituted.
It is forbidden to divulge images and writings that propagate this devotion under the form received by Sr. Faustina.
March 6, 1959 Acta Apostolicae Sedis, vol. 51 (1959), p. 271
The diffusion of images and writings promoting the devotion to Divine Mercy under the form proposed by the same Sr. Faustina was forbidden.
It is left to the prudence of the bishops to judge as to the removal of the aforesaid images that are already displayed for public honor.
YOUR POPE JOHN XXIII CONDEMNED THE DEVOTION BECAUSE OF THE REASON THE DOCUMENT LAID OUT.
I DON’T TRUST THE SOURCE WIKI PROVIDES.
This is what Lord Jesus told St. Faustina about Wounds in His Mystical Body: ” “Today bring to Me the Souls of heretics and schismatics and immerse them in the ocean of My mercy. During My bitter Passion they tore at My Body and Heart, that is, My Church. As they return to unity with the Church My wounds heal and in this way they alleviate My Passion.” Do you disagree with that?
SPERAY REPLIES: YOUR RELIGION HAS CHANGED THE WORDS “HERETICS AND SCHISMATICS” BECAUSE ACCORDING TO THEM THERE IS NO SUCH THING TO THEM. When the Diary was written, the Church’s definition of heretics and schismatics means they aren’t members of the Church. And the above quote says, “as they return” but your religion says there is no return. That’s an outdated ecclesiology according to your popes. DON’T YOU GET IT? YOUR POPES ARE THE HERETICS!!!!!
In the Twin Hearts,
Xavier. God Bless.
SPERAY REPLIES: I know you were thinking if not already in seminary. We have a seminary. We welcome you to reject the Vatican 2 anticatholic religion and join the real Catholic Church. Go to NovusOrdoWatch.com and read the garbage found throughout your religion and TraditioninAction.org and see how your pope is pro-homosexual and putting homosexual bishops everywhere. He did so in my own hometown where the bishop is a flaming homo and the fagflag flies with the dioceson flag and several churches in Lexington, Ky. WAKE UP AND GET OUT OF THE GAY RELIGON. OVER HALF OF YOUR PRIESTS ARE GAY. SEE
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/diocese-led-by-pro-gay-bishop-says-its-up-to-each-parish-whether-to-promote
https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/N021_Grassi.htm
https://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A579-Ciotti.htm
https://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A577-Permissive.htm
https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/N009_Agency_1.htm
https://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A553-Gay-Mag.htm
https://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A672-Finn.htm
https://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A591-Dolan.htm
https://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A515-MissGay.htm
https://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A724-Homo-Vat.htm
https://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A647-Rocca.htm
https://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A618-Pat_Gay.htm
https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/headline-news-around-the-world/item/3970-questi on-for-bishop-john-stowe-of-lexington-was-st-john-paul-an-intolerant-homophobe
https://www.traditioninaction.org/tiabkHomo.htm
https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/a02z_025_Collective.html
https://novusordowatch.org/2020/10/francis-calls-for-sodomite-civil-unions-wants-homo-coup les-to-raise-children-in-church/
https://www.infowars.com/posts/pope-endorses-same-sex-civil-unions/
https://www.thestar.com/news/world/europe/2020/10/21/pope-endorses-same-sex-civil-unions-i n-new-documentary-film.html